There is a lot of rhetoric about the “Battle for the Bible,” “Holy Living,” and “Grace.” Why are Christians fighting with other Christians over the Bible? Will this lead people to Jesus? Most of the believers I hang out with say they believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. Which means the Bible is without error in the original autographs.
I know the argument for the battle is that we must keep it pure. But if we truly believe the Bible is inerrant and sufficient, then why is there a push to add extra-Biblical rules to believers. This smacks of the Pharisees who added over 600 rules that burdened down the Hebrews during the time of Jesus.
It seems to me that some are living by tradition rather than the Bible. I wonder if these “warriors” for the Bible are worshiping the Bible instead of worshiping the God of the Bible! Instead of worrying about things that we may not approve of, why don’t we really teach and preach the Bible? Why don’t we truly worship the God of the Bible and quit fighting over the Bible?
The older I get the more I realize that the Christian life can be summed up with one word:
LOVE!
Matthew 22:36-40 says, Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
If we took this passage seriously, then there would be no need for a battle! I have one question no one has answered:
Why is there always a battle?
Okay, Kevin, I’ll take a shot at it.
There is always a battle for two reasons: 1, because people like to fight. 2, because people who think they are good leaders believe that unless there is a battle going on, people will not be interested in what they are doing.
Case in point: During times of crisis in our nation’s recent history, the first Gulf War, OKC, 9/11, and the first few months of the war on terror, people watched CNN and Fox News religiously. They hardly ever tuned out. But when things are fairly calm, they watch Oprah and Monday Night Football.
So what did the news industry do to get peoples’ attention? Every story is now BREAKING NEWS. People need a battle going on to keep them listening.
That’s my opinion.
Bro. Bussey,
This is a beautiful sentiment and I agree with you.
I think it’s interesting that some of the most combative people I’ve ever come into contact with claim insistently that Holiness takes greater priority over love. Maybe it’s easier to fight with people if a person doesn’t believe that love is an essential quality for living like Jesus?
I think there is also something competitive in human nature that is truly the thing with which we have to battle.
Just an example: last night before visitation my pastor was stuffing some envelopes to mail out a letter to church members. I sat down and started helping. I finished my half of the stack a fraction of a second before he did. I said “I won!” He responded quickly, “Let’s count!” So we counted the envelopes, he had four more than I did. I said, “yeah, but you started earlier.” I mean it was envelope stuffing for goodness sake … and yet I turned it into a mini-competition of sorts.
Of course that wasn’t a negative “battle” but still this competitive instinct might be a factor in why it seems “battle” gets more publicity time than “love.”
Unfortuanately I think Jason is right, but I would like to expand a bit, yes people like to fight, but what do they fight about? I think it is about power and control, and they use fear and anger to motivate people.
After all, what good is an inerrant Bible if all you do is fight one another over it? I know many spiritual people who, though they are attracted to Jesus wouldn’t go near a Biblical Inerrantist for beans.
Like Ken asks, where is the love? Some how Jesus fulfilled the Law and did in among sometimes large groups of people. He attracted sinners, I wonder what the unchurched will think of this latest fight?
So name an arena or venue or media where they DON’T.
MIT,
I don’t mean to correct you, but didn’t Roberta Flack ask, “Where is the love?”
Kevin,
Congratulations! You just fulfilled prediction number five on my blog.
BTW, when you use language like “I wonder if these ‘warriors’ of the Bible
are worshiping the Bible instead of worshiping the God of the Bible,” you
make a lot of us very nervous. Why? Because that is exactly the same
language used by moderates in the 1980s and 90s. I know that you
will protest that you are conservative. I have no doubt that you are
a conservative and not a moderate. Just understand that to a lot of us,
you sound very moderate. If you doubt this, just ask C. B. Scott.
Regards,
Les
There’s a battle because this is more about politics than it is about authentic faith. Politics is a struggle for power, which is pretty much the opposite of what Jesus teaches us to pursue. It’s a lot easier to play politics – where there’s a clear winner and loser and you can clearly define who’s in and who’s out based on your own definitions – than it is to live an authentic life of faith that accepts that our knowledge and wisdom about the Bible (and everything else) will not be perfect this side of heaven.
Kevin,
It appears to me that there is definitely a battle taking place between the “Memphis” crowd and the “Joshua” crowd. Love has not been the order of the day. I have difficulty seeing anything positive that has come from either meeting. Memphis lobbed grenades toward the old guard and now the old guard has fired back with the JC. I’m not particularly thrilled with either side. As you wrote yesterday both sides need to come to the table TOGETHER and work things out. There might be a few people from either side that could be cast out (too fundamental or too moderate) but most would find they can work together for the furtherance of God’s kingdom as Southern Baptists.
Les pointed out another unloving tactic..labelling. Once you get the “moderate” or God forbid the “liberal” label it’s OK to hate you!
Seems even if those on the other side do make a good point, we can’t go along with it because someone might mistake us for “them.”
This whole “us” and “them” thing is such crap!
Kevin,
Because it is much easier to “fight” than it is to “love.”
After all, loving God, loving each other is a tall order. Much, much too tall for people who would rather snot, slobber, snoot, and snort about “the inerrancy” questions. These same folks who want to have a “battle” about this issue and that issue, really have no idea what the scriptures say about what Christian community should look like.
Some “healthy conflict” is not bad at all…But CONSTANT conflict is not a good thing–not for the individual believer, or for a congregation, or for even…shall I say it…the Southern Baptist Convention!
Les,
Thanks for labeling me. I have said 1000 times that I believe in the inerrancy of the Bible and affirm the BFM 2000. But because I don’t fit into your definition of a conservative, I’m a liberal. That is sad!
Kevin – if I send you another Starbucks gift card will that make it all better?
well … unfortunately not … but I am praying for you
Thanks Dorcas,
I don’t understand it. I would like to say more, but I won’t!
PS: Starbucks! That gave me a smile!
Kevin, it occurred to me that many of these blogs are representative of the point you are making. When a popular blogger, for example, puts up a post asking for help interpreting a verse of Scripture, he gets a few hits, and a few comments. But if he posts something controversial, people are moved to action, and there are a hundred or more comments posted.
Not that there’s anything surprising in that, its perfectly normal. But it does illustrate why people like to start crap. It makes things much more interesting.
Jason,
You are probably right. I’m not joining the name calling game. Call me whatever you want–”I’m a follower of Jesus Christ.”
Kevin,
Don’t let it get to you. As you know, my husband has been called liberal quite frequently on certain blogs the past couple of weeks. Here was the latest comment on this same blog (of course, posted by Anonymous) :
“The signers of the Memphis Declaration were mostly disgruntled liberal pastors, many of which enjoy the taste of alcohol, and I think you know their intent is to sway the SBC more into line with liberal thought. There is nothing like a alcoholic, tongue speaking, woman pastor preaching at a future event. . . ”
These kind of things are just really sad. I’ve known my husband for over 25 years and he has never in all of these years had an alcoholic beverage.
It really doesn’t seem to matter how many times you claim the inerrancy of God’s Holy Word. If they can make you into a liberal, then they can make you the enemy. (thus, they get to fight again)
But thankfully, through the blogosphere, all you have to do is spend enough time on the person’s blog yourself and the person will let you know what he believes. This only makes those who spread the lies look very foolish indeed. No wonder they hide behind silly animal names or comment anonymously.
Thanks Sonya,
You just answered my question and so have a few others. I just wish that we kept our eyes on the real enemy. SATAN!
Its like a bunch of kids. Name calling. Please.
They called me worse than a liberal. It caused me to think that if they would turn on me so quickly, maybe they are wrong at the core, so I left.
I had my first beer at 35, and guess what? I still love Jesus. I’m not an alcoholic, and I don’t speak in tongues.
There is a woman on staff at my church, however, and occasionally she preaches, and I love it.
There is a Bruce Cockburn song that became an anthem for me when I was the victim of their slander and vitriol:
“They turned their backs, they made it too hard. Every place they touched me is a laceration now.
And look–see my tears, they fill the whole night sky.”
If they only knew the pain they cause when they turn on someone.
Fortunately, God does not need any of us, so His standard remains the same. And I am finding that our standards are nothing close to God’s standards.
Kevin,
ConsiterConsider the source of all hateful comments. I just don’t see the Heart of these people. God knows all and we have to Trust and obey, for there’s no other way. To bad they didn’t repent of their sins an change their spots.
In His Name
Wayne,
Thanks for stopping by. Wise counsel!
I’ve spent time with Kevin, and I’ve heard him preach in his church. He is neither a liberal nor a moderate.
I think Les’s point was simply cautionary regarding language. He is right that liberals and moderates in our convention have accused those they call fundamentalists of worshipping the Bible instead of Jesus. But whereas liberals and moderates used this language in the hopes of preserving in our BF&M a statement that allowed them to pick and choose which NT commands they think Jesus would have endorsed, I think that Kevin speaks from a pure heart and a desire to see us stop fighting and get busy following Christ.
I don’t agree with Kevin on a lot of things, but I’m happy to defend his conservatism.
Wes,
Thanks for the kind words. This is how it should be. You and Robin disagree with some of us but it isn’t personal. No one said we have to agree on everything. Except football!
Now if I could just convince you that beef is God’s revealed, perfect will for BBQ…
Kevin,
And that’s a good thing. Keep calling us to prayer and to love.
Your problem is that you don’t fit into anyone’s stereotype.
I think you are sounding the right counsel. We’re so busy throwing grenades at each other that we are all wounded by friendly fire. And the result is we are so busy fighting each other that the real enemy runs wild.
Pastor Bussey,
Your post has been in my thoughts all day. I sat down and looked at my New Testament at lunchtime and have some observations.
First, In the gospels, Jesus didn’t ever seem impressed with the doctrinal arguments between the sadducees. It seems like God’s word tells us that in their doctrinal arguments, the religious leadership missed God’s son and kingdom altogether.
Maybe as a denomination we’re so happy with fighting that we’re missing the kingdom? I still don’t really get the fight over the Bible. I’ve always though it was just God’s word. Anyway, it seems like in all the fighting about the Bible we’ve forgotten to read and live Jesus’ message? Like our preacher likes to say, “I already know more in the Bible than the Lord can get me to do anyway.”
Second, it seems like our whole convention is about pooling our resources to better carry out God’s mission. If our leadership is more interested in showing each other who is more orthodox, then maybe we won’t be able to get along well enough to pool our resources anymore. At some point the preacher guys need to realize that by fighting all the time and kicking folks out of our convention, they are shrinking the pool of shared resources? All these seminaries, schools and missionaries can’t be cheap.
Third, I though the Baptist way was for every Christian to be a priest and read the Bible for themselves. I don’t get how all these preacher guys wants to tell us how we have to believe the Bible instead of leaving that to the Holy Ghost. These Memphis preachers and Joshua preachers both seem like they are about to caucus together and have somebody run for Pope. That doesn’t seem like the Baptist way to me.
Sorry this was so long. I’ll be shorter next time.
Br. Kevin,
Oh maybe I should give you guys another target rather than each other, just for fun.
I am a Liberal and just about every definition of your Denomination would say that I am. So no worries about label confusion with me. Oh, and I am not a literalist, either. That should get some stones my way.
One of the BIGGIST issues I personally have with the word “inerrant” is that it locks us into one understanding of the Scriptures. It limits it, reduces it to one level.
Here is an example:
“The devil took Him [Jesus] up into an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them.”
- Matthew 4:8
Now some in the Church “inerrantly” said that the world was flat, because you could see it all at once from a very high mountain. Daniel 4:10-11 corroborates this concept. Now clearly we now know the world is NOT flat, but years ago, the Church said that the “inerrant” Scriptures so proclaimed, and those who did not believe were denounced as heretics.
I don’t see this passage as an error, but to look for the “exceedingly high mountain” as a literal place misses the deeper, spiritual meaning that Jesus was tempted with ALL the world’s kingdoms. It wasn’t the Scriptures that were wrong, it was our understanding of them.
I really liked Lighthorse’s statement ““I already know more in the Bible than the Lord can get me to do anyway.”, wow isn’t THAT the truth!
I believe that Jesus Christ is the Word of God, the Revelation of God to us, the book (bible) is simply a record of how God has acted in human lives and how He calls us to understand His love as exemplified by His Son. May we follow Him and act in love, FIRST.
Bro. Kevin
Sorry I am late to this. I don’t believe that Les accused you of anything other than being a conservative.
I believe there is a battle because people do love God. You, Wade and others are passionate about God. So are Les and I. That passion leads us to debate when we disagree. I believe this post is your passion for God and the SBC. While I disagree with your assessment, I see your passion and concern. We both want what is best. Those at the Memphis Declaration wanted what they thought was best. Those at the Joshua Convergence want what they think is best.
Remember, loving God requires obedience and we are all trying to be obedient. Don’t knock the people who met in Florida before you see how they and those who are with them carry out their beliefs.
I believe you are fighting for what you believe is the best for the SBC with good intentions, I hope you can see that in us who affirm the Joshua Convergence articles.
God Bless you my brother
Bro. Robin
Brother Kevin,
While you and I disagree, this is nothing that a trip to Starbucks cannot help. Sister Dorcas will pay, because you know how those lawyers rake in the big bucks.:>)
Seriously, the trip to Starbucks is something we all need. But, I believe if you read Les’ comment again he did point you to a fact of the argument you used. That was exactly what the Moderates accused the Inerrantist of doing–worshipping the Bible. Don’t take that as a personal attack against your conservativism. You have said you are an inerrantist and for me that settles it.
Blessings,
Tim
Why is there always a battle? Because some people think that their way is better and more correct than someone elses. Look at the attitudes exhibited by some of the responses here. There are people who are upset in a major way because Wade Burleson doesn’t just fall in line and go along with everything because those who are in charge are right.
I think you are right on target, and a lot of this doctrinal purity stuff, aside from being extra-biblical, is nothing more than a person’s opinion about something, but there are some people who think that God isn’t going to bless the entire denomination because a few people don’t have it exactly right.
We are missing the whole point of salvation by grace and soul freedom and a whole lot of joy and even some fun. I wrote about it here: http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com
Kevin,
Wes, Robin, and Tim Rogers read my comment correctly. I was only warning you about how your language sounds to the ears of those of us who have been through the battles before. As I stated, I believe you to be a conservative. I did not call you a moderate and I don’t believe the word “liberal” was in my comment.
Brother, I am only trying to warn you about using the phrase I previously mentioned (”worshiping the Bible”). That is the same phrase the real Moderates used years ago. Reusing old battle cries is not helpful in the current discussion in the SBC. I am assuming that you were not aware that your statement was an old Moderate battle cry. I trying to help you, not accuse you.
I hope that clarifies my comment.
Regards,
Les
Les,
You said: “Just understand that to a lot of us, you sound very moderate.”
That sounds to me like you are labeling me. Many of your comments on other sites make you sound like you are angry. I don’t get it. I’m sorry you don’t approve of my use of words. I stand by what I said. You again used “battle” language. Why? Who is fighting? I’m tired of fighting other believers. We have enough lost people out in the world to keep calling names. I am a follower of Jesus! Period!
Lee,
Thanks for stopping by.
MIT,
I still won’t label you. I’ll get flamed for this but I’d worship with you anyday. One of my best friends in Mobile, AL is one of the priests at Christ Anglican.
Robin and Tim,
Thanks for your kind spirit.
Kevin,
Oh well, I tried. Never mind.
Have a great day!
Les
Les,
I respect your passion, I’m just not a labeler anymore. Blessings.
[...] I saw this comment from Robin Foster on Kevin Bussey’s blog. At the risk of offending both parties, I am reprinting (can I use that word on a blog?) Robin’s comment below. It inspired the rambling, semi-rant that follows. [...]
Kevin, you are dead on. The hard part is when we live in our flesh and don’t know how to love. Loving is much more difficult than following the rules we create that we know we can follow for the most part.
Here is the catch for me. I could sign both documents. I did sign the MD. I had a good friend say that this might be an issue whee one has to choose sides because of the intentions of some of the leaders behind both documents and groups. I take the documents for they actually say. I could do without the alcohol statement in the “Affirmation” but I don’t disagree with it. I just think that it is a distraction. I am 36. I grew up under the resurgence. I am thankful for it. I am thankful that my pastor was a conservative. I am thankful that I had no clue that there was a conventon fight because it was never apart of our worship. I know that many of my classmates and friends from seminary will choose to drop out before they continue a battle that is already won. We have convention that is now governed by the BF&M 2000. If that isn’t enough then many will say we have had enough. If forced to choose sides we must be a generation that will not choose.
Perry,
I agree, my catch is all of the “battle” language. Why are we always fighting amongst each other. I still don’t get it.
Kevin,
Don’t worry about the language you use. It is not your responsibility to use the language certain groups find acceptable. Interestingly Les has spoken out against political correctness. Odd that he then requires it of you. He, or any of the rest of us, should be able to read the body of your thought and get your perspective. If he, or any of the rest of us, can’t see beyond the rhetoric of the past then that is our problem, not yours.
BTW, I grew up in the public school system. My high school was the first in the OKC school district to install metal detectors. “Moderate” is not an insult (even if it is intended as one). If you want to know what an insult is e-mail me. I can’t repeat most of them in this public setting.
Pansies use the term “moderate.” :0
Why is there always a battle? Because the flesh and the spirit are continuously at war with one another….As the flesh is crucified the Sp;rit is manifested in us if we are children of God…..It is painful to “die to self” and none of us can even accomplish it on our own….only by God’s Grace are we sanctified….
So the battle goes on….Self vs Spirit…..And greater is He that is in me and well able to finish the good work he has begun in me, as he will in you, dear brothers & sister in Christ Jesus!
Some Younger Preachers Need to Put their hands on their mouths a video clip from the Joshua Convergence
Wow Tony,
I’m speechless!
[...] For more on thisgo to my friend Kevin Bussey’s blog. He wrote a great piece on this. [...]