Ann Romney, the First Lady of Massachusetts, will be among the line-up of conservative Christian speakers at a live nationwide simulcast addressing the impact of same-sex ‘’marriage’’ on free speech and religious rights, the Family Research Council announced on Tuesday.
“Liberty Sunday – Defending our First Freedom,” which features speakers like Exodus International President Alan Chambers and Family Research Council President Tony Perkins, comes in response to the legal battles over marriage taking place in Massachusetts.
The event is slated to broadcast on Oct. 15 from Tremont Temple Baptist Church in Boston, Mass. In addition to live speakers, the broadcast will feature video-presentations from Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney, Focus on the Family Chairman James Dobson, and Prison Fellowship Ministries Founder Chuck Colson. Read about it here.
I admire Ann Romney’s fight with Multiple Sclerosis. I just don’t understand why the Family Research Council is partnering with a Mormon because they are opposed to everything that Christians believe. Read what the Family Research Council believes here.
There is nothing Judeo-Christian about the Mormons. They believe Lucifer and Jesus were brothers. They believe you have to work your way to heaven. They believe that women must be invited to heaven by their husbands. They wear “holy underwear!”
Why are James Dobson, Chuck Colson and Rev. Don Wildmon parntering with Mormons? Politics sure does make strange bedfellows.
What do you think?
All I can say is that the Mormons whom I met in USA showed me qualities which are usually known as “Christian”. Kindness, generosity, help in time of need, etc. And didn’t ask for anything in return. Best of all, they didn’t attempt to proselytise. If they regard themselves as Christians, who am I to argue with that? I say we should evaluate people by how they behave towards their fellow-humans, not by which denomination they belong to.
Francoise,
I’m not implying they aren’t nice people. But nice won’t get you into heaven. It is having a relationship with Jesus Christ. The lies they teach will lead people down a path that leads to hell!
Maybe they’re not telling lies at all. Lying implies a deliberate and conscious distortion of truth. And what is truth? Truth may be said to be speaker-specific. Maybe they simply have another perspective. There are all sorts of reasons why people believe as they do. I don’t believe as you do, but I would never accuse you of lying.
Francoise,
You sound like Pontus Pilate in John 18:38:
“What is truth?” Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, “I find no basis for a charge against him.
Kevin,
The Family Research Council’s primary mission is to champion “marriage and family as the foundation of civilization, the seedbed of virtue, and the wellspring of society.” It has, from the very beginning been a mixture of political and faith-based organizations – with politics being the glue that holds the various pieces together.
The FRC has always been about politics first, faith second.
The LDS have long been at the forefront of marriage/family research and social-policy setting. The family studies department at BYU is considered to be among the best.
So… I don’t find anything unusual about it at all.
Bowden,
Thanks for the info. I still don’t like it.
Also,
Should Christians be partnering with the Mormons? I don’t think so. When the FRC says God, which God? The Mormons believe they are Gods. I don’t care how great the BYU family dept is, Christians shouldn’t be partnering with them. That is unequally yoked!
If you’ve met Mormons who didn’t attempt to proselytize, you’ve met some unlike any I’ve ever known. I grew up in a predominantly Mormon community. Trust me, they proselytize like no one else does.
Francoise, the quality of “being Christian” is having a personal relationship with God through faith in Jesus Christ. That involves trust in Christ’s ability to be the savior, the sacrifice for your sin. Kindness, generosity, help in time of need, etc., are qualities that come after the fact of receiving grace from God through faith in Christ, they are not means to the end, which is what Mormons teach. Those things do not produce salvation, they are the product of it. Mormon teaching is the opposite of that.
I’m afraid Dobson, Wildmon, Colson, and other Christian right wing political leaders have sold out in exchange for political advantage. That’s what it looks like to me.
Lee,
Amen! I just don’t get it. Why are Christians trying to the work for God. If we are going to change the world for Christ, we don’t need to partner with groups like LDS.
When we decide to play in the world’s systems (we are in the world, but must not be of the world) we will do things as the world does. The strategic partnership they have made makes worldly sense. That, of course, does not make it “right.” I’m not sure what I think about it. The focus is marriage and the importance of that institution. They aren’t advocating a particular religion or faith. They are advocating for marriage. We share common beliefs about its sanctity. I’m not sure it is a bad thing. Also, it is organizational partnership, not individual partnering. Hmmm. Taking what you’ve said to an extreme, Kevin, I’m not sure any Christian could ever be politically active or be a congressional representative, because you would be in a position where you would need to “partner” up with groups and people all the time for certain objectives, even though the ones with whom you would partner might not be Christians. I haven’t given this thought or prayer, but I’m not sure I react the same way as you have.
What does the partnership really mean? Again, I haven’t read the langauge of the partnership, but if it is for a common purpose to which both groups can agree… well, how is that wrong? They aren’t starting a church or preaching a sermon together. They are working together to try to have an impact on political thought. Political thought. If the Christians involved do not have to in any way compromise their beliefs and can stand firm on who they worship, then I’m not sure I see a problem with it. Again, I haven’t read any of the documents or seen what will be undertaken, but we should be as slow to criticize such as I pray these groups were slow in prayer and counsel about deciding whether to enter the partnership.
Bryan,
I have no problem voting for someone who is not a believer. That isn’t my point. Look at the FRC mission statement. It talks about the Sovreign God–which God and if you bring Mormons in–which Gods?
Is the whole point of the partnership to promote religious freedom?
Bryan,
Why not just work with other Christian groups? Do you know what the Mormons believe? Do you know how many people are going to hell because of what they teach? No, I will not partner with a Mormon- period. I can’t see Jesus partnering with them to fulfill His mission.
Bryan,
I respect your views. I’ve just seen too many people deceived by the Mormons. I wouldn’t partner with them ever!
Kevin, I do. And they do preach a gospel different than the one Jesus taught. I agree. And, it becomes very difficult because they are much better at practicing what they preach than most American Christians. I just think you are drawing a dangerous line. Based on that it would be difficult to partner with any non-Christian ever, for any purpose, not Jew, Muslim, atheist, etc., and then you get into deciding who is Christian, and, well, are you going to start calling someone a tax collector and a sinner and unworthy of dinner? I’m not saying that is what you are doing here… I’m just trying to think through this and see where you are coming from. I would agree wholeheartedly if someone said, hey, let’s plant a church with this group of Mormons or this group of Muslims, etc.
What concerns me more is when “Christians” equate all things Republican with being Christian, or, said better, when someone is a Democrat or supports a Democratic stance that their Christianity is questioned… I think we have lacked wisdom in suggesting that republicanism has represented Christ to the American culture and have caused many to laugh at our hypocrisy in this.
Lees1975, if I read you correctly, you seem to think that only a “saved” Christian can possess the aforementioned qualities. I take exception to that view. Doing unto our neighbour is not the exclusive prerogative of any particular religious group. I have found the milk of human kindness all over the world, mostly from unsaved heathens like myself. In the wilds of Nepal, from nomadic Tibetans and Muslim craftsmen. In the crush of Calcutta. All over the world. Yes, from Christians, too. I don’t give a hoot what anyone believes, I judge them by their actions towards others. Period.
Bryan,
What concerns you more: partnering with someone of another faith, or the actual societal problems such as abortion, same-sex marriage, and disintegration of the traditional family? These problems are corroding our nation, and unless we can set aside theological differences and cooperate with those who share our social values, the Left wins. By some estimates, 3000 children are aborted every day. We can’t afford to be exclusive, we need change too badly. If we want to win elections and affect meaningful change, discussions such as these can only alienate our allies.
Jason
Kevin, you’re going to get on that watchlist again if you’re not careful.
Francoise, we should talk sometime. It’s funny how my friend tells me I break all the stereotypes about Evangelicals. And I tell him he breaks all the stereotypes I could ever come up with for a gay Catholic anthropology major. We have great conversations, even if we piss each other off sometimes. =) It never hurts to have another friend to challenge me.
Jason, ???? I think you and I are saying the same thing but you are questioning me? Although I don’t know that I would say Left or Right…
For many years now Dobson, et al and the Republican party have been using Evangelical Christians as voting pawns. There is a new book coming out called “Tempting Faith”. It was written by David Kuo, former Special Assistant to President George W. Bush and Deputy Director of the Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives.
He is no Godless Liberal, but one of the inner circle of the Republican Elite. In this book Kuo is said to report his growing frustration with the Republican Party in general and finally figuring out in specific that the Bush White House was simply using Evangelical Christians to advance a secular political agenda with little or no connection to the concerns of the so called Christian Right.
Why should it be an issue that they include Mormons or Muslims (as long as they vote the way the Party wants)? This is no suprise what so ever, to me, I am getting VERY disillusioned with mixing Faith and Politics.
The Politics win and the selfless life of a follower of Jesus somehow gets lost. Living a life of service and love changes the world, there is no Law that can roll back the affects of the Fall, and St. Paul himself says “if Righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died in vain.” (Galatians 2:21)
We can win all the elections, and rule the Government pass all the lawas we want, we may even be “right” but we sure as sin won’t be Righteous!
Brother Kevin,
When you and I disagree we are totally at logger head with each other. However, when we agree we are in lock step with each other.
Here we are in lock step. I cannot for the life of me understand how we can condone such theological ineptness in defining who we are and place a Mormon in the line up. It is more than politics making strange bed fellows, it is ungodliness on parade.
Blessings,
Tim
I think part of this is that Family Research, Focus on the family is trying to position Mitt Romney as the conservative voice of morality in the next presidential election.
Kevin,
I can’t believe I’m saying this but you are absolutely right! ;> Mormons believe their church is the only right church and if you’re not a Mormon then you’re an apostate. For those who want to understand more about Mormons, watch the NAMB video, “The Mormon Puzzle.” Partnering with Mormons is the same thing as partnering with Jehovah’s Witnesses or any other cult.
Regards,
Les
I will say this, Kevin: I HAVE worn holy underwear.
There, I said it.
Francoise,
No, that’s not what I am saying at all. I am not saying that only a saved person can have those qualities. I am saying that having those qualities cannot save you. Big difference.
My biggest problem with this level of cooperation between Mormons and evangelical Christians comes from knowing what the Mormon perspective of this kind of relationship will be. They use any connection they can find with any name associated with evangelical Christianity, or the Catholic or mainline churches as a ticket to legitimizing their faith in the eyes of the public. They are great imitators, they have “learned the lingo” so to speak, and they use all of that to attempt to convert people. The problem with a Mormon conversion is that it doesn’t lead to repentance of sin and faith in Christ to receive God’s grace, it leads to being taught that salvation is the result of one’s own works on behalf of “God” (but mainly on behalf of the church).
One of their main arguments in the efforts of their missionaries to convert people is that they are mainstream as far as American Christianity goes. Yet, their founding prophet declared that God “told him” that all denominations and sects of Christianity were false, and were abominations before the Lord, and that the church he would start would be the one true church.
Mormonism is a unique combination of elements of Christianity, necromancy, Masonry and Joseph Smith’s own narcissistic tendencies. How many of you have studied it in depth? I grew up in the middle of it, in a community where half the population was Mormon. Yes, Mormons emphasize family values, morality, doing good works on behalf of the poor, and many of them are altruistic, generous, good, loving people. But, they have the same set of human problems as everyone else. They divorce, their families break up, their kids have sex and get pregnant out of wedlock, they do drugs, they get drunk, they commit suicide, they cheat in business, and in predominantly Mormon communities there are courts to prosecute criminals, jails to incarcerate inmates and insane asylums for the mentally ill, just like everywhere else. The only thing I can see that they would have in common with the evangelical right is support for government that tends to favor upper middle class WASP type folks, since both groups are made up of overwhelming numbers of those kinds of people.
Yikes! I can get on a pretty good soapbox about the Mormons, huh?
I’m not sure I see much difference between Mormons and Christians uniting together to oppose same-sex marriage and Mormons and Christians uniting together to pick up trash along the highway.
Now if it is an event that allows the different groups to promote their faiths and agendas, that’s another story……..but to denounce the coming together over a single issue that they agree on is a little silly.
Bro. Kevin
If you were invited to an event to give the Christian perspective on marriage and a Muslim, Mormon, or JH were invited to it to give their perspective how is that partnering with those who hold religious views different from us? They are expressing their views not their unity with the other religions. If they did express any religious unity with them, then I would object.
What I am suprised about is the fact you have jumped on James Dobson and Chuck Colson but totally left the fact out that a Mormon is speaking in a Baptist church. That is what I don’t agree with. That to me seems to be the issue. And therefore, I would not participate in that event because a cultist is being allowed equal billing in a church that should be working to spread the gospel and bring light to what Mormonism really is. A Cult!
I don’t see this as Dobson or Colson purposely showing some sort of religious unity with Mormons. The Church should be called on this one.
God Bless
Bro. Robin
Yes the church should be called on this one! We have “light” and “darkness” attempting to co-exist.
And sadly enough James Dobson has become far more political than he should have become. I have great respect for Dobson and for his spiritual heritage–the Church of the Nazarene.
However, I find the “politicizing” of the Gospel in a Baptist church to be appalling. FRC and FOTF should call it what it is: A political event.
Have it in a stadium or arena. Not a baptist (or any other church.”
Why not find a “Mormon church” or temple in the Boston area? Put the shoe on the other foot….
Every Mormon in the nation would strenuously object if that were the case
Kevin is right on this one.
I hope that Kevin or anyone else does not think I disagree with Kevin’s conclusion of not cooperating with a cult.
What I was concerned about was quickly judging Dobson and Colson and leaving the church out of the mix.
Hope that clarifies what I meant.
Robin,
I agree with you. I’m not judging anyone. I just think it is hypocritical for the FRC who is supposed watch out for Judeo-Christian virtues to partner with a Cult.
To all.
As far as voting for Mitt Romney, I might vote for him. I just don’t want a Mormon speaking at a gathering of Born Again Christians.
Why don’t we partner with Tony Campolo, at least we pray to the same God.
I’m helping out with the homeschooling today so I may not be able to comment until later this afternoon.
Why not hold the event in a MORMON Temple in the Boston area?
See how THAT goes over….
Bro. Phil
I think the phrase, “Like a ham sandwich at a Jewish picnic.” might have some significance to your question. :0)
Robin,
You say that Dobson is not expressing any religious unity with Mormons by having this individual appear at a political rally he is helping sponsor. How can that be? Their beliefs on the subject at hand, same-sex marriage, both stem from their religious convictions. I assure you, the Mormons will most definitely perceive this as an endorsement of their faith by leading, nationally known evangelical Christian leaders.
Christians share the same view of same-sex marriage as Muslims do. Perhaps the next time he holds a rally, he can find a couple of Imams to help promote his view.
Mormon and Christians unite II ??
http://www.lds.org/newsroom/showrelease/0,15503,3881-1-23897,00.html
Who is helping who?
The only thing missing in this press release is a note that FTC is a ‘Christian’ organization.
Dave,
That is exactly what I’m worried about. What is Sandy Patti doing singing with the Mormon Tab. Choir?
I don’t mean to be too sarcastic here, but let’s go ahead and vote our values in Massachusetts Without the help of anyone outside the protestant world and see how far our vote goes to preserve moral values.
This isn’t ecumenism people, it is an alliance of individuals with different beliefs with similar values and a vote.
As we saw with Ralph Reed’s recent sellout to the gambling interests, there is substantial corruption in any pocket. It won’t keep me from voting my values the best I can, with anyone else welcome under the umbrella. Nothing to do with ecumenism here, just votes.
I’m anticipating the fallout here… could we separate the issue of the meeting being held in a church from the coalition issue?
Nathan,
Here is my rub. Why do evangelicals think they have to go out and do the work for God. Why don’t we pray and live out Jesus instead of using politics. Politics NEVER, I MEAN NEVER has saved anyone from hell!
Lees1975
I did not see where Dobson was helping to sponsor the event. If he is then I would have an issue with a Christian organization or person sponsoring an event and inviting cultists. Let me repeat what I said before because I think you misunderstood what I was getting at.
I am for speaking out against an organization that promotes Christian values and then invites a person who participates in a cult to speak. Again, my main issue was pointing out Dobson and Colson. Kevin said he did not mean to judge them and we agreed that it is hypocritical for any organization who promotes Christian values to work with cultists who promote a different view of God.
I am still wondering where the disappointment (and outrage) is in a Baptist church allowing a Mormon speak in it. If Spurgeon was still in his grave he would be spinning. Shall I mention the word, “Downgrade.”
Finally, I would not support any Imam’s speaking at an event such as this. Sarcastic or not, that wouldn’t be kosher. :0)
Again,
Why not have the event in an arena, or in a Mormon facility? After all, the FIRST LADY of Massachusetts is a MORMON….
Surely the 12 in Salt Lake City wouldn’t be adverse to that, would they?
HMMMMM
Good Question Phil.
When Christians endorse a political system, or allign with a political party, they get stuck endorsing everything that goes along with it, whether they want to or not. They can say whatever they like, the perception is still there.
Dobson’s silence on the Foley scandal, including the cover up by Hastert and others, speaks louder than any words he could now say about it. He’s afraid that scandal will damage the influence of the Republican party, and along with it the Religious Right, and affect their ability to elect candidates and have an influence in Congress. So rather than speak with conviction, he is silent. So much for “voting values.” It sure looks to me like the value of his political influence has caused him to compromise. Having a cult member as a partner in a political rally is just confirmation of that.
Lees 1975- by your reasoning, if being good to our neighbours means nothing to your God, then we may as well sin up a storm and be complete monsters to our fellow man? If all of us unsaved are on our way to Hellfire, do we get any reduction of flames if we tried to be good to others in our carnal existence? Do we get to sizzle at 1000 degrees instead of, say, the 5 million reserved for mass murderers and the like? Or does every unsaved person- the overwhelming bulk of humanity – wind up being tortured exactly the same way? If so, there is no incentive to be a decent person on earth, is there?
Joe Kennedy, if you wish to chat with me, fine. I’m arriving in USA 6 November. I will probably imbibe a few gallons of Jim Beam to get me through the jetlag of 19 hrs continual flying and then will surface, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. Your gay Catholic anthropology friend sounds like someone I know! As for stereotypes, I think I’m pretty much the stereotyped free-thinker.
I think that you’re mistaken about a couple of things and that has allowed you to take a rather pharisaic position on the need for all God fearing people to respond to attacks against the family. Last time I checked Mormons weren’t “opposed to everything Christians believe.” Mormons certainly aren’t opposed to the Bible. They aren’t opposed to repentance, prayer, forgiveness, Sunday worship, baptism, the second coming, a godly walk, the Holy Spirit, visiting the widows and fatherless, or calling upon the name of the Lord. I can think of a couple things we don’t believe that most other Christians do believe, but I’d hardly characterize it as opposing.
I don’t think Mormons would have any heartburn having a non Mormons participating in a service at a Mormon chapel. In fact, a few months ago, Ravi Zacharias was the featured speaker at the Mormon Tabernacle on Temple Square in Salt Lake City.
I would also take issue with your claim that “there is nothing Judeo-Christian about the Mormons.” Nothing? The fact that we accept the Judeo-Christian Bible as sacred scripture surely counts for more than “nothing.”
I agree with Lees earlier post that the most significant damage that it does is give credability to the Mormon faith as being Christian. It is not, in practice or doctrine. The main position that the Mormons have been taking in the last 10 years is they are just another Christian alternative. In my many discussions with Mormon missionaries as they roam our neighborhood is that they are just like us, even calling us “Christian brothers” until I pointed out in scripture what this title actually meant.
By partnering with them and even having a Baptist church host it allows them to continue to stake a claim to an uneducated “churched” society that we are all the same. Pragmatism for political gains will always get us in trouble and will get us in a deeper hole in trying to expose light to a darkened world.
Rusty
Hello, Alma. I see that you are a Mormon blogger. Welcome to the discussion.
Do Mormons believe in the complete authority and infallibility of the Bible, or only in the parts that are “correctly translated”? Is the Bible your supreme authority for faith and practice, or do you accept extra-Biblical revelation?
Do you believe that, upon repentance, an individual can receive complete forgiveness for sin by trusting in the fully human, fully divine, only Son of the Living God, Jesus Christ, his sacrificial death on the cross to pay the penalty for our sin and his resurrection from the grave to bring us victory over death and eternal life in His presence in heaven? Do you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, a woman who had not experienced intercourse until after Jesus was born, and that this was a prophetic sign from God of his divine nature and his sinless life?
You’re not the first Mormon whom I’ve asked these questions, by the way.
Alma,
Thanks for stopping by. I’m sure you are a nice person. But Mormonism is nothing but a CULT. It does not teach that Jesus is the only way to heaven. It does not teach that Salvation is by Grace alone. LDS teach that you must work your way to heaven. You say that the Bible is sacred in Mormonism but the Book of Mormon is more sacred as is the Pearl of Great Price. All they have is plagerism from the King James Version of the Bible.
Mormons are nice people but being nice won’t get anyone into heaven. To me that is deception at it’s finest. Call me a Pharisee about this and I say so what. As for Ravi Z. That is between him and God. I would speak there too if I could preach a salvation message!
For some fun reading, Google “articlewheel.com impersonate john paul”
It’s someone’s loony interpretation of the Book of Revelation, whose author, I strongly suspect, had been smoking something when he wrote it. Either that, or he had plundered the Zoroastrian scriptures.
What puzzles us infidels is how “interpretations” are all claimed to be inspired by God, yet hardly any of the interpretations ever agree. How does one tell when God is doing the inspiring, or whether it’s just a product of a febrile imagination?
I’d be interested in hearing what Christians would have to say about the abovementioned site. It gave me a few chuckles. Maybe a Mormon could understand it?
Kevin, I agree with you that mormonism is not Christianity, I’ll even go so far as to call them a cult, but when it comes to promoting values and things we agree with, I think the Christians can work with them. There is however, a place to draw the line. Obviously we agree on the basic issues of morality, but the agreement ends shortly thereafter. I do not see a need to compromise anything that we Christians believe in order to work with the members of other faiths. If we can use the same platform as they to reach out to others, that’s fine, but we don’t have to agree with them completely to work alongside them in some endeavors.
I have a personal stake in this kind of issue. I have committed myself to what I believe to be God’s calling for my life–military chaplaincy. In that setting I will have to work with mormons, female clergy, jews, catholics, muslims, and others. I do not agree with them, but I can accept that they are going to be there. I even expect to agree with them on a number of basic moral issues, but that doesn’t mean that I am going to endorse their beliefs or encourage others to believe as they do. There are times to fight with them and I believe there can be times to fight alongside them when we agree. JMO.
Well, Lees, you’re not the first person who has asked me these questions either. Let me see if I get this straight. You think that what I believe is some kind of a litmus test as to whether or not I’m saved? Is salvation by grace alone or by grace plus correct doctrine?
Do you accept a Bible that you know is translated incorrectly? I ask this because you seem to be concerned that Mormons accept the Bible as far as it’s translated correctly, but I don’t know of any Christians who accept any Bible whatever irrespective of translator. I’ve known quite a few Christians who took a dim view of the JW NWT.
I’m also interested to know whether or not you think these were questions that Peter asked on the day of Pentecost. “Repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins as long as you subscribe to the following doctrinal questionnaire?” When did “fully human” and “fully divine” get added to the Bible?
Kevin, you tell me things that Mormonism does “not” teach; yet I’ve been a Mormon all my life and my experience is quite different from what you assert. I’ve never heard, for example, that the Book of Mormon is “more sacred” than the Bible. I have always been taught that “…there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.” (See Book of Mormon Mosiah 3:17) One of us seems to have gotten some misinformation about what Mormonism teaches. I have always taught and understood that “no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah.” Why do you think that your perception and mine are so disparate?
Alma,
You still haven’t answered mine or Lee’s questions.
1. What does it take for a person to go to heaven?
2. Was Jesus the brother of Lucifer?
3. Are women invited into heaven by their husbands?
4. Why is the Book of Mormon plagerized from the King James Bible?
Thanks in advance.
Alma,
Peter did not say “Repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins,” he said, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.” He had just finished telling them exactly what repenting and being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ meant. Repentance will not save you, nor will baptism. But repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, which includes acknowledging his miraculous birth, sinless life, resurrection and exaltation to the right hand of the Father brings you into the grace of God which will save you. That’s what Peter said. There is no “litmus test.” Either you believe Jesus can save you or you don’t.
I would not accept a Bible that I knew was translated incorrectly. However, since we have a Bible that is translated correctly, we don’t have to worry about that. That’s probably a bit better than having a book translated from a non existent language like “reformed Egyptian” by a bogus translator on golden plates hidden in a vault inside the hill Cumorah in upstate New York and guarded by the angel Moroni, with no manuscript evidence available at all. And it is probably a bit more accurate than having a book that wasn’t as consistent as it should have been the first time it was published, so it had to have more than 4,000 alterations made to it to correct errors and change mistakes in it.
So, I guess the bottom line question is, do you believe that salvation comes by grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone, according to Peter’s sermon at Pentecost, Paul’s teachings, and the teachings of Christ himself?
Francoise,
I would be happy to comment on an “inconsistent interpretation” if you would provide me with an example. The statement about inconsistencies and vast differences and disagreements between the various groups of Christians over doctrine and practice of faith is often used to claim that we are all just operating out of our own presuppositions. That is generally an exaggerated perspective.
OK, go to the site I mentioned. Then Google “Iconbusters”. Read the anti -Catholic ravings. Both claim to be inspired by God. Then tell me who is correct, or if they’re both wrong.
Kevin wrote in reply:
“Why do evangelicals think they have to go out and do the work for God. Why don’t we pray and live out Jesus instead of using politics. Politics NEVER, I MEAN NEVER has saved anyone from hell!”
I understand this perspective and agree somewhat. However I suggest both/and here. Both “live out Jesus” in public to advance the kingdom, and privately vote our values at the ballot box. I think the key is not to confuse or switch these two, as many people seem to.
The “religious right” system is rife with hypocrisy but I think it does more good than bad despite its corruption. I welcome anyone’s vote who wants to vote according to classic Biblical values. And I also understand that there is no one party that reflects all these values…
Francoise,
Both sites represent an extremist view from the far fringes of Protestant Christianity. Neither view would be accepted by the vast majority of Protestants. Their interpretive standard for the select passages of the Bible upon which their teaching rests is not consistent with the mainstream of Protestant, evangelical Christianity. It isn’t even very consistent within itself.
You and Lees haven’t answered my questions. I’ll answer Lees’ after I address yours. I’ve numbered the answers to coincide with your questions.
1. It depends upon the person. Some have only to die; others must hear and obey the gospel and then live obediently to Jesus Christ who is the author of salvation to them that obey him. (Heb. 5:9)
2. While that terminology is generally unique to critics of Mormonism, it can be extrapolated from LDS theology when you understand that God is the Father of spirits and Lucifer is a spirit and Jesus was a Spirit and you and were spirits. Consequently all spirit children of God the Father are brothers and sisters.
3. No.
4. It isn’t. Plagiarism is the act of stealing and passing off the ideas or words of another as one’s own without crediting the source. Lots of Bible passages are cited in the Book of Mormon; just as there are lots of quotations of the Old Testament in the New. Matthew and Paul and other New Testament authors cited existing scripture. Is that plagiarism?
Lees asked,
Do Mormons believe in the complete authority and infallibility of the Bible, or only in the parts that are “correctly translated?”
Neither. Mormons don’t believe in “infallible” scripture.
Is the Bible your supreme authority for faith and practice,
Of course not, that would hardly be biblical.
or do you accept extra-Biblical revelation?
Of course we do, just as New Testament Christians accepted the writings of the apostles as the Word of God.
Do you believe that, upon repentance, an individual can receive complete forgiveness for sin by trusting in the fully human, fully divine, only Son of the Living God, Jesus Christ, his sacrificial death on the cross to pay the penalty for our sin and his resurrection from the grave to bring us victory over death and eternal life in His presence in heaven?
No.
Do you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, a woman who had not experienced intercourse until after Jesus was born, and that this was a prophetic sign from God of his divine nature and his sinless life?
Yes. Yes. No.
You’re not the first Mormon whom I’ve asked these questions, by the way.
This is the first time I’ve heard these questions either.
Alma,
Thanks for answering.
According to the Bible a person goes to heaven when they call upon His name.
Romans 10:9-10 says:
“That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that “God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.”
Romans 10:13 says:
for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
That means anyone and everyone who trusts Jesus. It does not depend as you say. We can’t do anything to work our way to heaven.
Romans 5:8 says:
“But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us”
The fact is we aren’t good enough for heaven. The good news is Jesus died for us.
I can’t accept your theology about Lucifer and Jesus.
Hi, Lees. All interpretation is subjective, is it not? Hence the thousands of Christian sects, not one agreeing 100% with another, all convinced that theirs is the one and only truth, all convinced that God has inspired them, and them alone, to understand.
It’s their individual psychologies which determine how they perceive in different ways.
For all I know, the bilious fellow at Iconbusters might well be right. He seems to think he is. He must, otherwise he wouldn’t be publishing his ravings and rantings for all the world to see. Personally, I’d say that he’s had some great wrong done to him which he cannot forgive, hence he takes out his anger on Catholics- a time-honoured practice for some of the sterner Protestant denominations. (Som eof my family were Presbyterian, so I know what some of them can be like.)
I had a discussion once with a very uptight, “born-again” female who was of the view that only she was right. The rest of the world was wrong. She condescendingly allowed that some were sincere, but, of course, they were “sincerely wrong”! What a miserable, narrow-minded existence she must have been leading.
Who determines what doctrines are to be believed and how they are to be interpreted? What is their authority?
This is not confined to the monotheistic faiths. A Chinese friend tells me that his wife is devoted to Kwan Yin ( Goddess of Mercy). She tells him that he MUST believe and must NEVER have doubts about said goddess’s alleged virtues. Never a suggestion, only an imperative. He is completely unable to believe in Kwan Yin, and this creates conflict in their marriage.
Tell me, if something were to cause you to doubt what you hold to be true, how would it affect you? Would it create fear and anxiety, or would you allow your mind to wander in new directions?
Having studied Judaism, I admire the Jewish tradition of questioning EVERYTHING, God included.
“According to the Bible a person goes to heaven when they call upon His name.”
So the fact that I belong to a “CULT” would have no bearing on my salvation because I and Mormons in general confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead. We also often call on the name of the Lord.
I also don’t know anyone who claims to be good enough for heaven. I will be saved because of the righteousness of my Redeemer, not for anything I have done.
Alma,
Do you have to be a good person and do good things to go to heaven?
What difference would that make? Am I saved or not for having confessed the Lord Jesus with my mouth?
Alma,
That is the double speak I always get from Mormons?
Are you saved by Grace and Grace alone?
Why won’t you answer my questions?
If I am saved by confessing with my mouth, what difference does my theology make?
And yes, salvation comes by grace alone. My repentance, baptism, good works cannot ever earn salvation; it is a gift of God; but God gives that gift only to those who obey him. It is not merely believers who shall be saved, it is obedient believers as demonstrated by Hebrews 5:9.
Alma,
I disagree. Paul talked about how he sinned over and over. We will never be perfect until those who have a relationship with Him are in heaven.
How can it be a gift if is for only those who obey Him? It is a gift, period. It is for those who accept Him. We obey out of gratitude not to earn salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-9 says:
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.”
Francoise,
I’ve been through a period of questioning everything about my faith. It was a long process, and I don’t claim to have all the answers. However, there is an objective standard for my faith, the Bible, and in regard to interpreting it, the New Testament record of Christ’s teaching along with that of the Apostles who are the church’s legitimate authority. There are also objective standards of historians which verify the accuracy of the New Testament manuscript by the same standard that any other work of antiquity would be measured.
The way that Protestant Christianity has developed throughout history, and the environment in which it has operated, particularly in the United States, has allowed individual sects, groups, denominations or theological “families” to develop a strong sense of autonomy, and to distinguish themselves from each other. This often leaves the perception that they practice widely variant beliefs and that they are all convinced that they are “the ones” who have it right. And of course, there are individuals within those groups who are prone to say so.
There is no control over who calls themselves or identifies themselves as “Protestant Christian.” The term, especially in the US, has come to be used to identify any church or church body that isn’t Catholic or Orthodox. But if you examine those groups which are directly connectional to either the Anglican, Anabaptist or Lutheran reformations, you will find they hold much more in common than they disagree with, and that most of their distinctive beliefs are a product of their history and culture rather than their theology. The closer you get to the core doctrines, mainly associated with redemption and salvation, the more they are alike.
For every “Iconbuster” there are a thousand sincere believers who are inclusive rather than exclusive. My belief in salvation isn’t intended to set me off from anyone at all, on the contrary, it is a testimony to my own faith which I have come to believe not just through intellectually acknowledging or verbally confessing Christ as Lord, but by believing and experiencing him through faith. I can “believe” that something the Bible says is true, but unless I put it into practice through faith, I will never know. My faith experience tells me that the Bible is true. The purpose of that is not to set me apart or exclude others who don’t have the same experience, it is to testify to the fact that faith in Christ does indeed work, and is available to anyone who wants to have it.
Thanks for that, Lees. The USA is far more religiously inclined than we ever were, or ever will be. WBC denounces Australia as “a dark,pagan land” and Australians as “a bunch of idolatrous heathens.” LOL.
My view is that there is no one way of interpretation- so to each their own. The strange thing is that so many claim to be divinely inspired by the “Holy Ghost”
( whatever that is- I have never understood it) yet disagree with one another.
All religious experiences are subjective, and some are caused by biological factors.
I myself have had two epileptic seizures, and, had I not known what had caused it, I could have believed that a divine being was with me. It was a very intense and beautiful hallucination. I do know that in antiquity, epileptics were revered as chosen ones receiving communications from gods. I can certainly understand how that view could have come about! I dare say that unscrupulous shamans exploited this for all they were worth.
As for Mr Iconbuster, he’s pathetic. One of God’s “elect”, and never a kind word to say about anyone. He spends his life sniffing out the sins of others and making cruel and offensive remarks about them. He calls himself a Christian.
It’s unfortunate that a minority of Christians can be so obnoxious and off-putting, but I take each person as I find them, and not judge by which denomination they belong to.
A rabbi once summed up religion as “Love God, and your neighbour as yourself. All the rest is mere commentary.” Would that it really were that simple!
As for faith in Jesus, he never once answered any of my prayers, so I gave him the flick. Why honour something that won’t respond to you? If it works for you, fine. It didn’t with me.
[...] Kevin Bussey notes Mormons Mitt and Ann Romney’s recent participation in an event sponsored by the Family Reseach Council- a Christian organization- alongside names like James Dobson and Chuck Colson [...]
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Believe me, Mormons are just as uneasy about partnering up with the anti-Mormon bigots at the FRC as you are. We do it for the political expediency, just like you do.
queuno,
thanks for stopping by. Why are we bigots? The truth is the truth. Mormonism is a works based religion. That is not what Jesus taught.
Recently I’ve become a huge fan of Glenn Beck, the ultraconservative, Mormon Radio and CNN persona. I have prayed for Mr. Beck’s salavtion and I feel sorry for any Mormon fundamentalist or the people who by the world’s standards are beautiful loving people and think they know the truth but they’re sooooo off. Instead of blasting these people, we need to “pray” for them. They have snippets of the truth, but they need to know the whole truth.
wow. this is a really cool argument you people have going here. i too am a mormon,
come on guys- get a grip. lets face a fact. people that challenge the mormons know pretty much nothing about them. and do not try to tell me you do- because you only talk about what you hear about- and probably all from the wrong sources. it’s easy to trash on something- but it takes alot more guts to stand up for something. please stop trashing on mormons. i cannot even begin to tell you how sick of it i am. it is so rude and judgemental, and i don’t understand why other churches/people do it to us, when we NEVER say anything about anybody else and their beliefs. please just stop. it’s not nice.
I think we are missing the bigger picture here. The problem is not with one or two Christian church leaders or with the Mormon church. There is a huge epidemic of Gnostic Occultism in our world and it is making inroads into the Christian church.
I have been studying masonic teachings, mormonism, Jehovah’s witness, Unity, Gnostic Catholicism, Wicca, the Jesuits, Bnai Brith, teaching of Kabbalah and on and on…it is all the same thing in different packaging…
And now I see this same ideology showing up very clearly in the Christian church. By their very own admission, Masons say that the largest majority of the members of their orders are Christians.
Some Christian leaders have been bold enough to come out and admit that they believe and promote Gnostic occultism and engage in ritual…but many of them are still “in the closet”.
My fear is that we will find out that some of the men we have held up as leaders are actually in fraternal orders that are backing the “New World Order”. After all, haven’t George and his dad made it very clear what their agenda is? And yet, Christians are backing them with great vigor.
I hope we wake up before we all follow these people off a cliff into hell.
The word “CHRISTIAN” means a TRUE follower of Jesus Christ. How many of the wonderful people who are bashing the Mormon’s on this site are actually true believers of Christ??? In other words, are they really willing to do all that HE requires. DO they really keep the commnadments (all of them)? Do they realize that the Bible teaches that “faith without works is dead”? Do they realize that the Bible strictly prohibits paid ministry, and that this is why so many evangelicals preach falsely about the Mormons? In other words, how would they receive a paycheck if there was no paid ministry??? Do they truly think that “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” is a cult…or…are they ashamed that they just simply might not be able to measure up to being more CHRISTLIKE? For all doubters, there are always sites out there like mormon.org that will shed truth and light on what Mormons really believe…versus…what you might be falsely told by those who are self serving. Bless you all!
Bill,
Thanks for stopping by and sharing in the discussion.
Where does the Bible forbid paid ministry? The Levites were paid. Paul accepted $ from his churches. The reason he was a tent maker was so the Corinthian church did not trust his motives.( 1 Cor. 9:3-ff). Paul was grateful to the Philippian church for their gift in Phil 4:10-20.
I agree that faith without works is dead but our works will never be enough to earn a place in heaven. Romans 6:23 says the “gift” of God is eternal life. You can’t earn a gift. That is the beauty of Christianity-it is a relationship with Jesus, not religion.
Seventeen Points of the True Church
For those wonderful brothers and sisters out there, who may have been falsely taught what the Mormon’s believe, here it is in it’s purest form…and…from the Bible which all Mormon’s (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) hold precious and dear.
The True Church:
1. Was organized by Christ. Eph. 4:11-14
2. Must bear Jesus Christ’s name. Eph. 5:23
3. Has a foundation of Apostles & Prophets
Eph. 2:19-20
4. Muat have the same organization as
Christ’s church. Eph. 4:11-14
5. Must claim divine authority. Heb. 5:4-10
6. MUST HAVE NO paid ministry.
Isaiah 45:13 & 1 Peter 5:2
7. Must Baptize by immersion.
Matthew 3: 13-16
8. Must bestow the gift of the Holy
Ghost by the laying on of hands.
Acts 8:14-17
9. Must practice divine healing.
Mark 3:14-15
10. Must teach that God and Jesus Christ
are separate and distinct
individuals. John 17:11 John 20:17
11. Must teach that God & Jesus Christ
have bodies of flesh and bone.
Luke 24:36-39 Acts 1:9-11
12. Must have officers CALLED BY GOD.
Heb. 5:4 Exodus 28:1 Exodus 40:13-16
13. Must claim revelation from God. Amos 3:7
14. Must be a missionary church.
Matthew 28: 19-20
15. Must be a restored church. Acts 3:19-20
16. MUST practice baptism for the dead.
1 Corinthians 15:16 & 29
17. By their fruits ye shall know them.
Matthew 7:20
Now my brothers & sisters…which part of this would scare you, if your President of the United States practiced these values & principles???
Bill,
I’m not going to argue with Scripture. Your references to Isaiah 45:13 & 1 Peter 5:2 do not say ministers can’t be paid, it says do not be greedy. I am not a health-wealth preacher by any means.
You still never answered my question about Romans 6:23. How can you work your way to salvation? The Bible says it is a gift.
Those who truly love the Lord Jesus Christ would desire to share the gospel with all peoples…even without a pay check. Jesus already PAID THE PRICE…so…why must people PAY a minister to share this with them, when it is free for the asking???
1 Peter 5:2 states, “Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by restraint, but willingly; not for FILTHY LUCRE (that is money), but of a ready mind.”
As for Romans 6:23…I humbly and lovingly ask that you reference yet again, Matthew 7:20…”By their fruits ye shall know them.”
Bill,
This is what all Mormons do–skirt the issue. Is it a “FREE GIFT” or not?
Also, your cult is sending millions to hell! I have had it with your lies and deception. Tell me about your “Holy Underwear.” How can you say Lucifer and Jesus were brothers? Tell the truth!
Many of the Twelve Apoatles were fishermen. When the Savior asked them to lay down their nets and follow HIM, they did just that. They did not say (with lip service) yeah Lord we believe in you…but…we’re going to remain here and fish. They followed and obeyed HIM every day for the rest of their lives. FAITH is actually followership…otherwise…how can we have say we have faith in someone if we do not live HIS teachings continually?
Two (2) words explain this in more detail. They are “wavering” and “diligently.”
In James 1: 5-6 we learn, “If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God, that giveth liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. BUT…let him ask in faith nothing wavering.”
In Hebrews 11:6 we learn, “But without faith it is impossible to please HIM, for he that cometh to God, MUST believe that HE is, and HE is a rewarder of those who diligently seek HIM.”
Bill,
Is salvation a “FREE GIFT” or not?
Pastor Bussey,
Latter Day Saints (Mormons) wear garments to remind us of the commitment we have made to the Lord Jesus Christ to follow HIM all the days of our lives and to strive to keep commandments. Preachers of protestant churches wear clothing which would remind them of a commitment they have made, and Catholic priests wear a white collar. For those of you reading this, you may wish to visit http://www.mormon-underwear.com/
This explains (in truth) why we wear sacred garments, just as have many others have throughout time.
As for lucifer…In Iasiah 14:2, he is described as a fallen angel.
Bill,
I will ask it again. Does Jesus offer salvation as a “FREE GIFT?” You still have not answered the question.
Salvation IS a free gift. Where we spend eternity however, will depend on our level faithfulness after we are baptized, or in other words, enter the “Strait & Narrow Path.”
But with that said, there are degrees of reward (glory), based solely on our commitment to FOLOWERSHIP while in this probationary state here on earth. This is evidenced in 1 Corinthians 15:40-43 and again in John 14: 1-4 where we are told, “In my Father’s house are many mansions.”
Bill,
That is not what the Bible teaches. You Mormans are teaching people the way that leads to Hell!
Salvation is a gift and we can’t earn it. We work to show our faith not earn it. My friend you had better study the Bible a little closer.
How did the thief on the cross, “work” his way to heaven? He didn’t Jesus forgave him and he entered heaven because Salvation is a gift.
Also, Where in Scripture do you have evidence that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers?
For those of you Brothers & Sisters who may desire to know the truth without falling victim to the biased false opinions of this site, you NO LONGER have to be coerced to think, pray or worship, as PAID MINISTERS tell you to do.
You are free agents unto yourselves, and are highly intelligent beings created by a loving Heavenly Father. You may wish to go to a non-venomous site where truth & light are paramount.
It is http://mormon.org
Bill,
Why are you afraid to answer the question?
You are teaching a false religion that says Salvation is spelled “DO”
Jesus says salvation is spelled “DONE!”
It is based on what Jesus did not what we do.
Answer my question: How did the thief on the cross get to heaven when there was no way he could have done anything good as he was dying on a cross? He sure didn’t dress up in a white shirt and tie and go around harassing people. How did he go to heaven?
Pastor Bussey…so far, I have quoted quote scriptures from the Bible, and strive to let my light shine forth.
You have name called, and made some very negative comments about precious souls created by our father in heaven…all the while, proclaiming yourself as a Christian.
We have already learned that PAID MINISTRIES are an abomination, but you continue to argue against the very Bible you proclaim to follow. I did not write those scriptures, yet you want to argue their authenticity.
Are you taking a stand today against the loving peoples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
What would you have the world do with us?
Are you telling your audience that we are not followers of Jesus Christ…but…you are???
Where does it say that “Paid Ministers” are an abomination?
The Bible makes it clear that there is only ONE WAY to go to heaven–That is to have a personal relationship with Jesus.
The Mormons teach you have to work your way to heaven. You twist the scripture to suit your views.
Is it a free gift or not? What about the thief on the cross? Why won’t you answer a simple question?
Pastor Bussey,
How much money does your congregation pay you to spread venom about people who are humble, kind, generous, and loving?
How much money do they pay you to teach false doctrine?
WHY are you afraid for them to learn the whole truth about our Savior Jesus Christ?
Are Buddhists and other widely accepted religions going to hell…or…just the Mormons?
Bill,
I’m not into religion. I have a relationship with the one and only true God–Jesus Christ.
I’m not afraid to tell the truth. You have not answered my question. You came on my site and have leveled accusations against me and my calling.
I don’t care if it is a Buddhist, Mormon, Baptist or anyone–If a person has not asked Jesus to live in their heart then they will spend eternity apart from Him. We can not work our way to heaven.
PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTION: How did the thief on the cross make it to heaven?
Pastor Bussey,
Are you teaching me and others, that after we are baptized, ALL we have to do is say we are christians, and that is all? Is that all there is? Is it really that easy. Does this mean we can drink, curse, smoke, cheat on our spouses and so forth..but..because we once proclaimed to be a christian, we are covered by the Blood of the Lamb?
Bill,
You are deceived by the false teachings of a heretic.
The Bible says there is one way to heaven and that is through the person of Jesus Christ.
No we don’t just say we are Christians–We have to ask Jesus to be in our lives and repent of our sins. Yet, we all sin following our conversion.
We can not work our way to heaven.
Please answer the question: How did the thief on the cross make it to heaven?
Reverend Bussey,
Why would you ask me about the thief on the cross? From everything I can tell, you are an expert on not only christianity, but also mormons (which are also followers of Jesus Christ). You seem to be a scriptorian, yet argue against exactly what is printed in your Bible???
Why don’t you teach me about the thief on the cross.
Isn’t it true that you are a liberal democrat, who is afraid of the light which is bursting forth into the world?
Doesn;t this mean that you in fact will have to do more than lip service…or…perish???
Liberal Democrat? Where did that come from? No, I’m actually a registered Republican.
You will not answer my question. What are you scared of? THE TRUTH?
I am not scared of the truth…that is why I have not only uncovered it within the pages of the Bible, but have also provided websites wherein the susscribers of this blog may go to learn it. They only have to read the past 10 to 15 postings on this blog to learn that you have argued against the very scriptures you claim to uphold.
Rather than tell people what you think the Mormon’s believe, WHY will you not just allow them to see for themselves? I wish you & the readers of this site the very best, and invite all to go to http://mormon.org
Bill,
You are amazing! The only thing your discussion has shown is you have avoided my questions.
Again, there is ONE WAY to heaven– through a personal relationship with Jesus. We can’t earn it– it is a FREE GIFT, Romans 6:23, JESUS died for us when we don’t deserve is, Romans 5:8 & ALL we have to do is accept Him, Romans 10:9-10,13.
Pastor Bussey,
Please click the following link for your answer about the “Thief on the Cross.”
http://beta.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=091f438d9b76b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1
Bill,
With all due respect, what do you believe? Don’t drink the Kool-aid. Study the Bible yourself and trust the Holy Spirit not burning in your boosom.
O.K. I’ll promise to take your advice, and in return, will you please stop charging the fine folks of DURHAM MEMORIAL in Charlotte, a salary to teach a free gospel??? Just do it because you truly love the Lord, and maybe you can get a good paying job elsewhere
I challenge you to stand before the congregation and preach a sermon on 1 Peter 5:2, which clearly forbids PAID MINISTRY.
This will be my last transmission for today, but I DO want you to know that I love you and your family. May God bless you greatly with the RIGHTEOUS desires of your heart!
Bill,
Your exegesis is pretty poor. 1 Peter 5:2 doesn’t forbid paying ministers. I showed you other verses for you to look at earlier. It is obvious you aren’t really intersted in learning because you haven’t looked at 1 Peter very closely.
Once again you avoided answering my question. I don’t go on your site or any Mormon site & start the mess you have here.
I will say it again, ask the Holy Spirit to reveal himself to you– not what your Prophet says.
We believe in the Priesthood of the believer. Born again Chrisdtians have the Holy Spirit living in us & He helps us live & interpret Scripture.
Today, we must re-visit Pastor Bussey’s proclamation that Mormon’s belong to a cult.
Wikpedia describes a cult as follows:
Cult – From the latin word “cultis” which denotes ALL that is involved in worshop, ritual, emotion, liturgy and attitude. This definition actually denotes what we call denominations and sects, and would make ALL religious movements a cult.
Now isn’t this interesting???
Bill,
Can Kevin have an opinion with out you being so rude? If he believes that Mormonism is cult (and he’s not alone) isn’t that his right? You can have your opinion & no one is acting like a jerk to you! This is a forum for OPINION & it’s Kevin’s site – if you have a differing opinion, WordPress blogs are free – get one!
As long as Kevin was giving his humble opinion, he was well within his bounds. But, when he began to call names, poke fun, raise question to another persons level of spirituality, make “don’t drink the Kool-Aid” comments, and then outright dispute the very Bible (King James version) he claims to preach from, then we have a serious issue.
You would only need to go back and review the last 10 or so entries of this blog to understand what I am speaking of.
You see Ryan, we never judge or slam other peoples or their religious beliefs. We do not force people to join our Church or accept our beliefs. We never make fun of others, but for some reason Pastor Bussey has decided that in order to make his own light shine, he must blow out another precious soul’s candle.
Pastor Bussey (who proclaims to be) a graduate of the Dallas Theological Institute in Fort Worth, even argued (when it was presented to him in plain english) that the Lord forbids paid ministry.
There are hundreds of thousands of precious sould out there being duped into believeing anything a preacher throws at them without picking up the scriptures to see for themselves.
do you believe all mormons are lost? my understanding of the bible is basic christain teaching saved by grace. but somethings are hard to comprehend. i believe everything i have read that you have talked about. i was raised in pentecostal church. i have been around some mormons really good people. i have been around a lot of so called christains that dont know much about the bible. curse drink do drugs etc but say they are saved because they believe!! they say me and god are alright, its a free gift once saved always saved. this verse does confuse alot of people.since it is a free gift i just have to believe and do whatever because im never good enough. dont believe that myself but others do.
Lee. There are wonderful people of all faiths and beliefs. But…can ALL churches be true. God IS NOT the author of confusion. So how can HE allow so many versions of doctrine and churches??? The true gosple has been restored to the earth in preparation of HIS coming again.
You might find the following site to be eye opening. mormon.org
Lee,
Jesus said in John 14:6 “That I am the way, the truth and the life and no man comes to the Father but through me.”
You can’t work your way to heaven. It is not about religion, it is about a relationship with God.
Jesus said “faith without works is dead.” In other words, just saying we are saved IS NOT enough. Afterwards, we must prove it by our actions and desires to follow HIM.
Following HIM is more than lip service. A true follower strives to keep all the commandments (not just the ones he picks and chooses), pays a full 10% tithe (scriptures are specific on this when it says “why rob God”), loves and serves others, avoids the pitfalls of the world and maintains a full time commitment. In other words, it is called enduring to the end…which is not easy…but…worth it.
This liberalistic laid back version of the plan of salvation, wherein we only have to say we’re Christians and never do another thing to prove our commitment to the Savior, is going to lure many souls into sad disappointment.
An employer can give me the greatest job on earth (a wonderful gift), but if I rarely show up for work, come in late, or basically refuse to take my job seriously, I WILL LOSE my job.
The employer will say “depart from me, I never knew you.”
why would god use 12 apostles to witness and almost 2000 years later use one man joseph smith to reveal the true gospel? does this mean god did not already know the future? why not believe charles taze russell?
Lee,
Because it is not the real Gospel. No reputible Theologians or Archeologists buy Joseph Smith’s story.
A-P-O-S-T-A-S-Y…D-A-R-K A-G-E-S
Those 12 apostles were martyred, wicked people were left to interpret things as THEY saw fit (rather than how HE wanted them to be) and thus…..thousands of churches each teaching/preaching a slightly version of the gospel. Go to 10 churches and you will here the same story told 10 different ways. They cannot ALL be right.
We were told in the scriptures (Old & New Testamants) that in the last days, a Prophet would rise up to restore the “LOST GOSPEL” back to the earth. You might want to research the “Stick of Judah being combined with the stick Joseph..which will become one stick (book) in God’s hand.” It’s in the Old Testament.
Where in the Bible does it talk about a “Lost Gospel?” Not the book of Mormon or Pearl of Great Price, where in the Bible?
Go to 10 churches and you will here the same story told 10 different ways. this is simply not true.. not where i live.” I have visited different churches. the main difference is standards and some are more strict then others..the real difference i see” are the jehova witness and the mormons bible stories. I have been around quite a few J.W. they are totally convinced they hold the truth and all are lost including mormons.
The following link lists 36 Bible scriptures that describe the time of apostasy, when the true gospel was hidden up from the inhabitants of the earth, and they were left to interpret the best they could.
This is why there are so many churches now, and they cannot ALL be true. Why??? Because God IS NOT the author of confusion.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/a/130
Bill,
Those are mixed with LDS writings. Show me in the “HOLY BIBLE” where it says there is a lost gospel.
Joseph Smith was delusion and a liar. He plagiarized his Book of Mormon from the KJV of the Bible. No good archeologist believes the BOM or POGP are as old as the LDS says.
You sir are a false teacher. You will not read the link which has been provided for your readers, because it disspells the falsehoods you make here.
Click the link, and read for yourself (from the KING JAMES VERSION of the HOLY BIBLE) and then come back and tell us that those scriptures have been mixed with LDS writings.
The following links are pure King James biblical scripture.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/a/130
Excuse me?
The book of NEPHI is not KJV. It is apostasy. Your religion is leading people to Hell.
Funny how you overlook 30 odd scriptures from the KGV, to focus on one from the Book of Mormon…which is also scripture from the hand of God???
Folks…do not take my word or that of Kevin…just read the verses for youyrself, then ask the Holy Ghost to be your guide.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/a/130
I have no problem with reading verses from the Bible. But the Pearl of Great Price and the Book of Mormon are lies!
My days in the Baptist Church reminds me of one of their favorite verses…”Judge not lest you be judged.”
Yet, I see a lot of judgement about the Mormon’s on these blogs.
If you really desire to know what the Mormon’s believe, why take the word of someone else??? Simply go to the following web site.
http://www.mormon.org/welcome/0,6929,403-1,00.html
I did not send you the Pearl of Great Price. I sent to you scriptures from the King James Version of the Holy Bible.
If the Book of Mormon is a lie, then why wouldn’t the books the mainstream christians sell for millions of dollare in their pockets also be false teachings??? They were not written by the hand of God were they???
Who is judging. Mormon people are nice. But nice will not get you to heaven. The mormon books are lies and the mormon theology will lead people to hell!
PROVE IT.
John 3:16 says:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
You don’t need anything else.
If we BELIEVE in HIM, we will FOLLOW HIM. If we do not FOLLOW HIM (keeping every commandment) we ARE NOT followers.
James 1:22-23 & 25 SAYS
“But be ye DOERS of the word, and NOT hearers ONLY, deceiving your own selves.
For if any man be a hearer of the word, and NOT a DOER, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass.”
“But whoso looketh into a perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a DOER of the WORK, this man shall be blessed in his deed.”
You DO need to do more than simply say I am saved…or…you are NOT saved at all.
kevin, what does the stick of judah and the stick of joseph really mean?? i had met a mormon where i worked. no longer around him. did not really know much about what they believed until recently.
Kevin,
In the post above, Lee asked you a question. You told us yesterday that you had been trained to translate the Bible…soooo…please answer Lee’s question.
Your reference scripture in the KJV is found in Ezekiel 3:16-19
Thanks!
Bill,
What about the thief on the cross? Jesus said that he would be with Him in paradise (Heaven).
He just believed by faith like Kevin posted in #130. He didn’t have to do anything but accept the free gift by believing (trusting) Jesus.
stick of Judah
Rob,
We believe that all men have the right to believe as they wish.
I looked at the link Kevin provided above. It is interesting that it is entitled “Concerned Christians.”
If their gospel is the final word of authority, what in the world would they be so concerned about?
Do they not believe in liberty and free agancy, whereas all men are free to choose?
Rob,
In reference to my last post, and just in case you want to be 100% sure of your convictions, I humbly invite you to read about how faith, works and grace are intertwined.
Go to:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/faith_works.html
Bill,
I am interested on what you teach on John 6:26-29
Evangelicals can work alongside LDS for the betterment of our society, but there is a limit to that partnership. Working together on cultural or moral issues is one thing…Kingdom building is quite another. (because we belong to different kingdoms)
It has always fascinated me that Mormons present two mutually exclusive concepts (one in each hand if you will) They’ll hold out one hand and say, “We’re Christians, too.” Then, they’ll put that hand behind their back, hold out the other and say, “We’re the one true church”.
They can’t have it both ways and the created Christ that they present is not the Christ of the Bible!!!
One positive…Mormon theology has been fluid and constantly subject to “new revelation”. Perhaps one day the “prophet” in charge will be led by the Holy Spirit of God to move that denomination to a Biblical understanding.
One good read:
The New Mormon Challenge by Francis Beckwith, Carl Mosser, Paul Owen, and Richard J. Mouw
Thanks,
Scott H. Church Planter, Idaho
i’m going to enter this conversation. personally- there is too much scripture comparing here, and nobody is getting anywhere. second- everbody is acting irrational by calling each other names. i’m pretty sure i am the youngest one here, and even i know better than that. so just stop- it only makes you look bad.
i will comment back to the last thing written- which was about how we believe that we are christian, and the only true church. i hope we can all agree that if you are a christian then you believe in christ. you cannot argue that latter day saints do not believe in christ when we accept the king james version of the bible as sacred scripture, and bear his name as the title of the church.
secondly- we believe that we are the only true church. this also makes perfect sense to me. Christ was on the earth so long ago, and slowly his apostles died out without new ones being added in to keep the priesthood going. because it was so difficult to spread information, it was nearly impossible to keep the church running smoothly. false doctrine began getting mixed in probably both on accident as well as on purpose. slowly the truth was crowded out. this is visible in all parts history and is agreed upon by the historians. they refer to it as the dark ages. no progress was made for a very long time. when joseph smith was 14 he went to ask our heavenly father which church he should join because he was confused. he did not expect to see or hear the things he did. he said himself that he did not expect people to believe him, because who would? he said he probably wouldn’t have beleived him, but he knew what had happened and he could not deny it. say what you want about this experience, but i have learned for myself that it is true, and that joseph smith was a prophet. through him, the true gospel has been restored to the earth just as in the times of old. it all makes too much sense for me not to believe it.
also- if you believe that our church isn’t true, i must assume that you belong to the catholic church, because they are the only church that can date that far back. if you believe that they had the authority then and that they were able to keep it, it only makes sense that they are the only true church then. if you don’t believe that they are the true church either, then i wonder how you can justify the fact that all other small religions have then broken off of an un-true church to become a true church.
just things to think about.
thanks
Maddie,
Thanks for stopping by. Mormons are nice people but being nice won’t get you into heaven. The only true church are those who have accepted Jesus Christ as the leader of their life. They have accepted His “FREE GIFT” of eternal life. We can’t earn our way to heaven. It is only based on what Jesus did not what we do.
Can two not walk together unless they be agreed (Amos 3:3)? Sure, Christians believe that you can be accepting of others. It’s a core belief. It stops when your become complicit with unsound doctrine. By uniting with Mormons, you become complicit in their goal of becomming mainstream. Mormons are by definition heretics; they indicate they are Christians…while actively promoting beliefs that are not Christian (Adam’s fall from grace was a good thing, you can be a god, the trinity is three seperate gods, God has a wife, Jesus is the literal product of fornication and the spirit brother of Lucifer and so on down the line) unsound doctrine.
So can two walk together lest they be agreed? Yes and No. Humans can walk together in most cases. But the true meaning is: can you walk with God if you don’t believe in the biblical God, the biblical Christ and the true means to salvation…faith alone (not acts as the Mormons prescribe) Regrettably, the answer is NO…God and you (two) can’t walk together unless the two of you (they) be agreed. God has never asked any Christian for a relationship to a church, he has only asked that you have a relationship with him. Mormon’s have a relationship to a belief system, not to the biblical Christ.
A reply to Maddie:
Maddie, you’re very confused. Firstly, I have good friends who are Mormons. Their belief is none of my business, until they begin to speak unsound doctrine. At that time, every Christian has an obligation to evangelize the true church…Christianity. So here goes:
Christ came to earth to re-establish God’s covenant with the apostates. The apostacy (don’t tell your bishop this) happened in order that Christ would come to establish the true church. He ended the priesthoods (again, don’t tell all the men running your church) and became the one true priest of the one true church. The church did not die. The church spread so quickly that it became one of the key causes for the fall of Rome….the greatest empire in history. The word was out. The kingdom of heaven was within you, was all around you, was free, you just had to say a). I’m sorry and b). I believe. Just as Adam sinned and all men died, Jesus died and all men lived. It’s that simple.
Ironically, Joey Smith Jr. the polygamist fornicator, the fraud artist, the active criminal, the great story teller, the seer the magician the leader on the road to perdition (okay I’ll stop there) indicated that he had been told when he looked into the hat full of magic beans (sorry, it was a magic rock) that all churches were false (maybe it was a magic mushroom because I now recall this was stuff he saw in the woods when he was out searching for buried treasure). You’re telling me that you KNOW this was true. You can’t know…therefore you have willfully told a falsehood, which to some makes you a liar. We know that the early americans weren’t hebrews as stated in the book of Mormon…DNA proves it. Strangely, there is more scientific evidence supporting the possibility that Bigfoot is real than there is scientific evidence supporting the book of Mormon. By the same test, science cannot disprove the bible.
As far as the Catholic thing goes….I was brought up in that belief system. I am not Catholic anymore because there is no need….I am Christian. Catholics until late were a lot like Mormons: they had doctrine that was outside of the bible, they taught revelation through an infallable leader (Pope), they taught atonement and works vs. faith alone. The problem with the world is that there are too many Mormons and Catholics and not enough Christians.
Scott Ewen, that’s an interesting observation that the problem ( there’s only one world problem? I note the singular, not a plural) with the world is too many Catholics and Mormons. What do you think would consitiute an acceptable number of Catholics and Mormons- zero?
As far as I’m concerned, the only thing which matters is how any believer treats their fellow humans.
Francoise,
We agree. I’m not concerned about the ratios. I really don’t care what anyone’s faith is, worship cabbages if you want to, but:
- I’ve been told too many times by (in fairness to your comment) both Mormons and Catholics that they’re the true church. My reply is simply – no, that’s not biblical, and that’s not what Christians believe.
- believe what you want, but don’t say you walk with God, and then reject his doctrine. As stated earlier, two cannot walk together (you and God) unless they be agreed.
- don’t tell me you’re Christian…and then in doctrine reject the core beliefs of every Christian. By that same formula, if I say I’m Christian, and reject the core teachings of the Mormons: does than make me a (gulp) Mormon? The same goes for the Catholics.
Thank you for challenging my beliefs. Please continue to do so.
Yes, it’s silly to claim a monopoly on “truth”, whatever that word might mean. But ALL believers think that they and they alone are in possession of the “truth”, don’t they? Your message seemed to imply that the world would be a better place if Catholics and Mormons didn’t exist- that hardly seems like a “Christian” thing to say, does it?
Francoise,
(dangling modifier). I never meant to imply that at all. Again, I don’t care what you believe, but don’t suggest that I’m less worthy because I’m just non-denominational Christian. Regrettably, Mormons do routinely claim to have the truth, or to have discovered a new truth. The missionaries that come to my door routinely ask if I would be interested in talking about Jesus’ new truth for all after he restored the church. That sounds like fiction to me.
Best regards and peace…
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