I love Mormons, Muslims, Buddhists, Jehovah Witnesses, Wiccan’s, Satanists, Unitarians, Atheists, Christian Scientists and every other religious group. I really do! I also love Catholics and protestants.
I love them so much that I have devoted my entire life to telling everyone about the life changing message of Jesus Christ. You see the Bible says unless a person has a relationship with Jesus Christ they are going to spend eternity separated from Him. That place is called HELL! It doesn’t matter if you go to church, go on missions trips, tithe or you are just a nice person. If a person doesn’t know Jesus they are going to Hell.
You can call me judgmental. You can say I’m narrow minded. I don’t care. Jesus has radically changed my life and for that reason I can’t keep silent. I don’t want to offend those of you who chosen to follow Joseph Smith or Muhammad. You are entitled to worship anyone you want. You are entitled to be wrong.
The difference between all religions of the world except for Christianity is that every other religion is based on doing good works. But none of us will ever be good enough to get to heaven. The Bible says:
- Romans 3:23- “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”
- Romans 6:23- “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
- Romans 5:8 - “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us”
- Romans 10:9-10- “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justifiedit is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.”
- Romans 10:13-”Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
There have been many Mormons and Muslims visiting my site in recent weeks. I encourage you to keep stopping by for a friendly dialogue. Please visit this site or this one if you have any more questions.
Filed under: Christian, Christian Science, Mormons, Muslim, Witchcraft & Paganism, atheists, buddhist, cult, faith, jehovah witnesses, satanism, unitarians, wiccan
What part of the big picture do you not understand??? The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints follows Jesus Christ. Duh???
Why would anyone be so bold and brazen as to place HIS name at the head of their church if they did not love and worship HIM???
Joseph Smith was no different to the Mormon’s than Billy Graham, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are to the Baptist’s.
If you were to ever come through the doors of a Latter Day Saint building (rather than judge based on what you have heard versus what you could see, you would find the walls in the hallways lined with paintings of the Savior, the Savior washing the feet of HIS apostles, the Last Supper, Jesus being baptized by John the Baptist, Jesus teaching little children of every color… and on and on!
Who founded the Baptist Church before they spun off from the Catholics??? Do you worship that man??? Did John the Baptist actually find the Baptist Church??? If not, why do you call your church Baptist??? If it is John the Baptist’s church, then you MUST (by your own definition) worship him. If on the other hand you worship Jesus, then you should change your name.
People can accept the Roman road (never let us forget that the Roman’s crucified our Lord and Savior)and still desire to do more than pay lip service. Once again, in James 1: 22-23 we are told to “be DOERS of the word…not just hearers.”
So…what is cultist about tithing 10%, serving others, striving to keep the commandments, BEING NON-JUDGEMENTAL, following Jesus Christ and so forth.
Are you proclaiming to the world tonight if peoples of other faiths strive to do these things once they enter the waters of Baptism, they are going to hell?
1 Peter 5:2 STRICTLY PROHIBITS PAID MINISTRY.
WHY are so many pastors and big mega ministries so afraid of the truthfulness of this verse???
To anyone who views this post. I challenge you to ask Pastor Bussey to prove to you with biblical scripture, that the Mormon’s do not know Jesus Christ.
Ask him to tell you the name of one Mormon he personally knows, that worships any other entity besides the Savior.
Ask him how he knows what is in another brother or sister’s heart.
He claims to be non-judgemental???
Let us all pray for his soul please, as the Holy Ghost continues to work on him. He will eventually come to a clear understanding of the truthfulness of the whole gospel…it’ll just take some time, trials and tests.
Bill,
I have been praying for you. You have been deceived. How good do you have to be? If you sin right before you die how good would you have to be to go to heaven?
We will never be good enough.
Bill,
The issue is in the definition of terms. The problem you have with Kevin, and with anyone else who holds to the historic Christian faith, is that when you say, “Jesus Christ,” you refer to an exalted man who is the spirit-brother of Lucifer. When we say, “Jesus Christ,” we refer to the One who was in the beginning with God, who (along with the Holy Spirit) was and is God, and who, in fact, created Lucifer.
Bill, you are to be commended for defending your belief. I suppose I would do the same thing.
But you are wrong. You are so wrong.
Did God have a sexual union with Mary, conceiving Jesus? That is what your church teaches.
Can I have my own universe with many wives and children, over which I am my own god? That is what your church teaches.
Does the Bible teach that anyone who adds or takes away from its words would be in danger of the fires of hell? And yet your church has come up with two other books, as if the Bible were not enough.
And do not even begin to compare Billy Graham to Joseph Smith. Billy Graham has never claimed to be speaking directly from God. He speaks from the Bible, and has never written his own testament.
I have no problem with Mormons, personally. You can believe whatever you want. But your belief system is filled with holes, beginning with the fact that the Book of Mormon is a plagiarized version of the King James Bible.
Bill and other Mormons reading this thread,
The reason we do not consider you a part of the true Christian faith is not inherently b/c of your founder, but b/c of the theology he taught his followers.
When JS supposedly asked God what church to join, he was told to join none of them b/c they were all apostate. Why would you now, in recent years want to claim you’re just another denomination when they are all apostate in your view?
JS founded a new faith, not a new denomination. Yes, Jesus is a central figure in this new construction, and there are elements of Christianity, but Who Jesus is, is no longer the same, WHAT Jesus did and WHY are no longer the same. HOW we receive eternity with God was changed.
To support all this, Joseph didn’t turn to the pages of the Bible, but to “NEW” Scripture on lost golden plates that no one can verify. The BoM isn’t even where you get most of your theology, but from the Pearl of Great Price and Doctrines and Covenants.
Adding to the Scripture is a bad idea. In your case, JS had to add to Scripture in order to justify the unorthodox beliefs. This was necessary b/c those beliefs cannot be found in the Old or New Testaments.
To claim Mormons are just another Christian denomination is to hope that: 1. We don’t know about our own beliefs. 2. That we don’t know anything about yours.
To change the fundamental understanding of Who Jesus is, to change What He did and How we receive it (by Grace and not works)is to fundamentally change the Gospel of Jesus Christ–which is what Paul warned no one to do.
Galatians 1:8–” But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!”
Kelly
With the exception of one, ALL denominations (if they are traced back to their origins) have spun off from the Roman Catholic Church. That same catholic Church took away at least 21 books that were in the original text of the Bible, and changed many words to that which is left.
So to answer the last question, I suppose those who did that, and those who NOW falsely teach a partial truth would be in danger of Hell.
As for the question about Mary (mother of Jesus), it is as plain as Luke 1: 27 & 30 which states…
“To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the House of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary.”
“And the angel said unto her, fear not Mary, for thou hast found favor with God.”
THIS IS WHAT LATTER DAY SAINTS TEACH ABOUT MARY PERIOD.
For the question about Lucifer, Isaiah 14:12 states…
“How art thou fallen from HEAVEN O Lucifer. the Son of the Morning. How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations.”
For the Book of Mormon being plagarized, I doubt of any of you have read a single verse or chapter, so there is NO WAY you could possibly make such a false claim as that which you have made. In fact, it IS a testament of Jesus Christ’s visitations with the inhabitants of this continent, as written by Prophets.
Can any one of you deny the pyramids in Central & SOuth America and the more recent archaoelogical discoveries that point to the fact that there were civilizations here millenia ago? If there were people here, then they were created by the same God who created us. If they were here, they were also God’s people. Why would Jesus Christ (the redeemer of ALL mankind) limit his ministry to the lands around the Middle east and eastern Europe???
As for the Book of Mormon…it was predicted that you men would stake the very claim you have in the above commentaties. It is found in the Book of Mormon in
2 Nephi 29:3-4, 6, 10. The Lord states…
“And because my words shall hiss forth-many Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible”
“But thus saith the Lord Go: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing salvation unto the Gentiles?”
“Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have you obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?”
“Wherefore, because that ye believe that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains ALL my words; neither ye suppose that I have not caused MORE to be written.”
Lastly, you will soon see that the light and truth shall be made manifest. There is NO stopping it from bursting forth. The little stone which is mentioned in Daniel 2: 34 & 45 will be the cause of thousands…even tens of thousands to turn unto it, and they will be baptized by those who truly have the priesthood authority upon then earth…those who have been called by God. I promise you this in the na,e of Jesus Christ.
Do not take my word for it. You can know for yourself by visiting the following site: http://lds.org/
BTW, being Baptist has nothing to do with John the Baptist.
It has to do with the recovery of believer’s baptism back in the 1600’s by a group of Seperatists from England (btw, they were the other half of the Seperatist church in England that our American Pilgrims come from) who were influenced by a group of Mennonites in Holland.
With this influence and the study of Scripture, this group of Seperatists began to understand that Christ called us to be baptized as believers (as opposed to infant baptism). Hence the name Baptist. It was an identifying belief that distinguished us from other orthodox Christians, not separating us from orthodox belief. We did not change anything about fundamental doctrine. I.e. the identity of Jesus, His work on the Cross, or Salvation by Grace alone through faith alone.
Kelly
Then WHY do you call yourselves Baptist’s if he (John the Baptist) was not a charter member of your movement???
We likewise baptize our members (immersion in water below the ground rather than above the ground) to distinguish us from other orthodox Christians.
Truth is, the Mennonites, separatists, Baptists, Church of England and so forth, ALL can have their roots traced back to the Roman Catholic Church (revised Roman Empire) which crucified our Savior.
Kelly…of all the things you have shared with me above, how do you know if any of them are true???
What I mean is…who taught you these things? And…how do you know they are telling you the truth?
Did you hear it from another..or…did you learn it is a theological seminary. And if it was there in seminary, you have already stated that the history ONLY goes back to the 1600’s. Right???
So..what makes this the final word on who loves Jesus Christ and who is wrong…as you have stated I am???
Bill,
We are called Baptists because we believe Baptism by immersion is the proper mode. Also, we believe it must be done after a person accepts Jesus Christ as the leader of their life.
As for the passage you quoted about Lucifer, yes he was a fallen angel. But he was not the brother of the Lord Jesus Christ!
Bill,
I think you mean well. But we will never be good enough to make it to heaven on our own. Only through a relationship with Jesus Christ who died for your sins.
Bill,
First let me say your history is not good. Please don’t give us all a headache with bad history. I already have one as it is, sinuses. OK, first the baptist issue. Our roots do not go back to John the Baptist. Please get past that and leave that behind. Our name was a variant of the term Annabaptists who were persecuted and killed for their belief in believers baptism. The year spoken of above was 1609 when James was on the throne of England and two years before the KJV Bible came out in print (which btw many people in England considered too Anglican at the time).
Second, no one has denied that our roots are in the Roman Catholic Church. A fact I am quite comfortable with. In the early years of the Church the Roman Catholics were the only denomination there was. It was not until 1054 that the Eastern Orthodox split with the Roman Catholics that there was a second denomination of the Church. The term catholic means universal in Latin and so it was at the time the universal church, the only church. It was not the old Roman Empire. By the time of the fall of the Roman Empire, in the 700’s, the church was very numerous and held many people together based on their faith. Yes, the church also by this time had aspirations of being a political identity as well, but for our discussion here that is beside the point. The point is that during the early years of the Church Rome persecuted believers. The Roman Catholic church was just the way the believers came together and formed a way of communication, upholding of orthodox doctrines, and unity of believers. They did not kill Jesus, they were his followers. It would appear as if you are placing your hopes and faith on a name of a church and not the beliefs of that church. It is not about the name, but the faith of those in the church that matters. This is a discussion of beliefs. I am sure anyone here would be happy to discuss your beliefs and their beliefs with you. As I say to my husband and son quite often, “Stay on target, stay on target.” BTW, this is Kelly’s wife,
Vicky
Who created Lucifer? Are you a brother of Jesus Christ???
You are 100% right. We will NEVER be good enough by our selves. It is through the Atonement (crucifixion and resurrection to life eternal) of Jesus Christ that makes it possible to receive eternal life and return to live with Heavenly Father again some day.
Heavenly Father (whom Jesus prayed to in the Garden of Gethsemane) is God, and he has a body of flesh and bones. He has a son named Jesus Christ…who was sent here to redeem the world. Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of God (Heavenly Father) and HE likewise has a body of flesh and bones.
The Pentecostals baptize…so do the Church of Christ. WHY don’t they call themselves Baptist’s??? WHY don’t you say that they are going to Hell…if that is where you say ALL Mormon’s are going???
Lastly Kevin, you have stated it mosteloquently. You said. “we can only go to Heaven through a relationship with Jesus Christ who died for our sins.”
Soooo…what is the difference in my relatiobship with Jesus Christ who died for my sins…and your relationship with Jesus Christ who died for your sins. Isn’t a relationship just that….a relationship?????????????
Vicky,
Awesome! You taught me a few things.
With the discussion going on Wades site…
Bill,
The difference is Mormons believe you have to do works.
Good morning Vicky,
Thank you for your comments. My question to you is…what happened to the church (any church) between the time that Jesus ascended, the Apostles either died or were martyred, and the period you describe in which the people’s came together again to form the Catholic church???
If the Catholic church was/is true…why was there a spin off???
Was this a time of apostasy??? And if it was, wasn’t it a time in which people were left to their own interpretation(s) of the gospel?
And if many people interpreted it in many different ways (some out of the need for political or financial gain), then wasn’t the TRUE GOSPEL really lost/taken from the erath?
If the true gospel was lost, would God not restore it again some day in the future?
Are you telling me that the Baptist’s were commissioned by God to restore the true gospel in the 1600’s? If that is so. then ALL other denominations with the exception of your brand are false. Right?
And based on Kevin’s comments, they too would be going to Hell. This is sad, beacuse your church heralds many books written by those of other faiths, invites guest speakers of other faiths, and serves on councils with other denominations.
So why would ALL the other denominations you align be true, but the Mormon’s be false…if they too believe that Jesus Christ IS the only wat back to Heaven???
Kevin,
Do you believe we do not have to do works after we are Baptized?
Bill,
Baptists don’t believe we are the only one’s going to heaven. ANYONE who asks Jesus into their life. My parents are Presbyterian now. My sister goes to Calvary Chapel. Salvation is not in any denomination-it is in a personal relationship thru Jesus.
We do works because we love God-not to earn His favor.
Kevin,
Thanks, I thought of that too (ie. Wade’s site).
Bill,
OK, you want to do this we can. I am perfectly up to the tast. First, let met give you a couple of verses.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is be grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast. (I will leave it up to Kevin to discuss verse 10 since that was your question for him).
John 4:23-24 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit and his worshipers must worship in spirit and truth. (God is spirit, not flesh and blood – no where in Scripture will you find that and it does fly in the face of what is in Scripture, God is spirit. To worship in spirit and truth is vital, the truth of who He is. You change who He is and you are not true worshipers. That is Scripture, not Vicky).
Next, your questions:
1.Jesus did not leave this earth with a name of a church. There was no “church” as in denomination at the time it was just His followers and they made disciples and they made disciples and what did not take very long, realitivly speaking, the Roman Catholic structure began to appear in the why these disciples of Jesus organized themselves. If you study Roman Catholosism and it’s structure and even early structure you will even begin to see hints of this structure talked about in Scripture. I must say that that was one thing that surprised me in my seminary studies was just how early one can see a Catholic structure in our history. So, to answer your question, the “Church” of believers went no where it grew and grew based on the testimony of the Scripture (Old Testament and early NT letters that were floating from place to place and the testimony of believer, even those who were being martyered).
2. There was a spin off in 1054 because of disputes of power, who controled the church, Rome (the church,not the empire) or Constantinople (Byzantine) and their views on the Holy Spirit. Rome believe as does the rest of Western Christianity that the Holy Spirit was sent by the Son and the Father where as the Eastern Orthodox churches believe He was sent only by the Father. This is not an issue of salvation or the identity of who God is, therefore both would be considered Christian and Orthodox. The next spin off in 1517 with Martin Luther happened because Luther was trying to reform the Church, not leave it. He was forced out. However, many of the abuses of the church that concerned Martin were corrected after the Reformation by the Roman Catholic Church itself in what was called the Counter Reformation. Many are concerned with the importance that Roman Catholics now place on works for salvation, but most are not willing to place them outside of orthodoxy as of yet because many still place their faith in Christ alone and believe that works after salvation is important, which it is and again that was your question for Kevin. Other denominations began to form and the study of Scripture became more prevelant among average believers. As different doctrinal issues were highlighted in Christian history, not doctrines that are core orthodox beliefs, but none indentity or salvation issues. No one would say that these churches are outside Christianity. Although some do have issues witht he Church of Christ because of their belief in baptismal regeneration, making baptism a work necessary for salvation.
3. I would not call it a time of apostasy although sitting in many Church history classes of the mideval era we would often ask was anyone really saved in this period. I am happy to say that the true faith was never lost. God is God enough to preserve His own faith. There were many during this time who believed in the one true called by faith alone. I think a lot had to do the the availablity of Scripture, even to local priests and the ability to read itself. Once a person can read one does not need someone else to tell them what it says. The Holy Spirit is our teacher. I am of course taking about The Bible. The church only began to come up with a cannon because of a fellow by the name of Marcion who put one together and left out the writings of Paul along with much of the OT. So the church found it necessary to decide what floating letters were actually Scripture and what was not. They had certain tests to identify these books, which we can discuss later if you wish.
4. I am not telling you that Baptists were commissioned by God in the 1600’s to restore the true gospel. The true gospel was already out there and had been since the time of Christ. What I am telling you is that a small group of Separatists began to understand the importance of adult believers baptism, not for salvation, but simply in the life of the believer and so they began to practice that. That is all I am saying. I do not believe that other denominations are false. If they stand within orthodoxy they are true believers, period.
5. Mormons are not within orthodoxy because of their beliefs about who God is, flesh and blood, and their beleif about salvaiton by works, not faith alone. Either one of these two things would be enough to place them outside or orthodoxy. Both of these would have to change along with their belief in who Jesus is. He is the only Son of God, conceived by the Holy Spirit. If you do not believe in the decisions that came out of the first six councels of the Roman Catholic Church on who God is and who Jesus is (these being all based on Scripture) then you yourself have said you are outside of orthodoxy. All Christian denominations hold to these truths that came out of the early Roman Catholic Church. So if you do not then you are saying you are not just another denomination so why would you want to be identified as one. Beliefs of orthodoxy are solidly fixed and Mormons by their own admission have placed themselves outside of it. I recommend you study real church history that is based on mounds of evidence upon evidence. I pray you will find the truth and the love of the real Jesus Christ, because identity is essential.
Vicky
P.S. Kevin I apologize for the length of this post.
Vicky,
No need to apologize. Great stuff!
If God does not have a body of flesh and bone, then HOW did Moses see God face to face in a burning bush???
Kevin,
What a great post! This is the best blog post I have ever read! This is what blogging ought to be about.
Mormons worship a Jesus of their own design (an idol), not the Jesus of the Bible. Just because they have the name “Jesus Christ” in the name of their church does not mean they are orthodox Christians.
I earnestly invite Mormons to come out of Mormonism and come to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
In Christ,
Les
In Exodus 8, Moses showed Phaorah the finger of God. If HE is a spirit only, how does he have a physical finger????
GOD THE FATHER and HIS SOM JESUS CHRIST HAVE BODIES OF FLESH & BONES
IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER…..
“Behold my hands and feet” Luke 24: 36-42
“Jesus Christ made in the likeness of men”
Phillipians 2: 5-8
“Men are made in the similitude of God”
James 3:9
“When the Savior shall appear we shall see HIM as HE is. We shall see that HE is a man like ourselves” John 1:30 Titus 1:13
“The same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven, shall come in like manner as you have seen HIM go into heaven”
Acts 1: 9-11
“God created man in His own image”
Genesis 1:26
“For I have seen God fae to face”
Genesis 32:23-30
“God’s hands, face and body parts”
Genesis 33: 21-30
“When him I speak with mouth to mouth”
Numbers 12:5-8
Les,
Thanks
Bill,
Moses couldn’t see God’s face because the bush was burning.
Bill,
In addition to hands and feet, does God also have wings?
Psalm 17:8
All that you have cited are anthropomorphisms, that is, God, who is a spirit (John 4:24) and not a man (Numbers 23:19), revealing Himself to finite man in a way finite man could relate to.
Bill,
You are referring to “anthropomorphisms.” In the Bible, it says God has wings. Do you believe God is a bird? There are certain attributes in order to make it more understandable to us. The Bible specifically says that God is spirit. He is not flesh and bones. Sorry.
Do you deny that it was once the official teaching of the LDS that black people were decendants of fallen angels, and therefore were not welcome to convert to Mormonism?
Well folks. It all comes down to this. The love of money is the root of all evil.
1 Peter 5:2 STRICTLY PROHIBITS PAID MINISTRY…yet all of you claim to be followers of the Bible.
Which part of this verse do you not understand???
If we take away salaries, book deals, mega for profit” churches, and just teach the scriptures irregardless of if we’ll be able to make our mortgage payments, then and only then will the real truth begin to hiss forth.
I challenge all of you paid ministers to simply teach/preach the truth…whatever it might be.
How many of you will base your sermon around this verse next Sunday..not wavering one whittle or twit from what is specifies???
1 Peter 5:2 again says…NO PAID MINISTRY and relates it to “FILTHY LUCRE”
Bill,
That passage in 1st Peter has nothing to do with paid ministers. How do you explain how the Levites were taken care of thru the Tithe?
Satan is the father of all lies, and he is alive and well within the walls of theological seminaries. There, you were taught words like anthropomorphism’s…one of the many tactics he uses to dispute the very Bible you claim to teach from.
Ephesians 4:14 states…
“That we henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive”
Leviticus 27:30-34 states….
“And all the tithe of the land, whether of the see of thr land or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord’s; it is Holy unto the Lord”
Malachai 3: 8-12 “Will a man rob God”
Bill,
I agree with you about Satan being father of lies. Your cult believes Jesus & Lucifer were brothers. My friend, you have bought into a religion full of lies.
You never answered my question from earlier.
Are you and Jesus brothers?
Bill,
you have not answered my my question. What about the Levites?
The word cult, derived form the Latin word “cultis” describes ALL religions as a cult.
No I’m not Jesus brother. I have been adopted by God thru Jesus.
If God created the world, the heavens and the earth, and everything upon, above, in etc…then he created Jesus Christ didn’t HE?
If he created Jesus, then who created Lucifer/Satan?
Kevin…lovingly…where were you before you became a human lifeform on this earth?
Whatever you want to call it, the LDS teach lies.
Bill,
I Timothy 5:17-18 – “Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. For the scripture says, ‘you shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain, and the laborer is worthy of his wages.”
The I peter passage speaks to the motivation by which we are to serve. It does not forbid paying ministers. (and i would agree there are plenty of ministers who are simply prostituting the gospel for the benefit of a big salary. But i digress…)
You should not get hung up on this. Kevin wrote a post out of a heart of love for people who have been blinded by the lies of our enemy. May i suggest you spend time reading through John chapter 3. It clearly lays out who the true Jesus is and what/who he came for. God loves you brother, we do too.
I was nothing before I was born.
In Genesis it says “we”
In John 1 it says Jesus was the Word.
Bill,
Just for clarification, no one is saying that Jesus was just spirit. Scripture clearly teaches that once Jesus was born of Mary that He was quite human. Fully God and fully man and forever will be. Another decision on doctrine of orthodoxy that came out of the early councels of the Roman Catholic church btw.
Vicky
Kevin…where were you before you came to this earth????
Jamie…why should anyone upon the entire face of the earth pay to be preached to? The scriptures (King James version) is free for anyone to decipher by the power of the Holy Ghost.
Jamie…who are the elders who rule…and…how did they bestow that title/tight/privilege upon themselves???
I was nothing. God created man.
Bill,
early church had elders whose primary assignment was to teach. 1 timothy among other places seems to indicate there was compensation.
Who are the elders? Men called by God whom the congregations would appoint as they recognized that calling. Read Titus.
But again Bill, you are missing the point. We could spend years debating various nuances of the NT church and neither you, myself, Kevin, or anyone else ever budge on our beliefs (see other current SBC discussions
) The bottom line is this: is Jesus Christ (alone) your Lord and Savior? He paid a great price for sin so that you and I won’t have to.
Bill: Which is completely off the original subject, you are asking a question with a question. I think it needs to slow down and you need to answer the first questions put before you, using the Bible that I assume you own. Not the book of Mormon, just get out the scriptures. The Bible says beginning in John 1:1 ” In the beginning was the Word(Jesus), and the Word(Jesus) was with God, and the Word(Jesus) was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.”
Let’s begin there.
Mormons believe that God is an exalted man. They also believe that they will become gods and have their own universe and procreate spirit babies to populate their assigned universe.
Is that orthodox Christianity? Obviously not. Is any of this fantasy biblical? Obviously not. Mormonism is a cult. They believe that if you’re not a member of the Mormon church that you (we) are apostates. Just like the JW’s, they believe you have to belong to their church to be saved, which is a classic characteristic of a cult.
Les
Bill…As a Christian I believe in the virgin birth, death and resurection of Jesus Christ. He shed his blood for my sins thus granting me everlasting life. Nothing I could do (works) would do this for me….By His grace am I saved.
The Latter Day Saints have added much that the Bible (God’s Word) doesn’t substantiate.
Three levels of Heaven (Only Mormons in good standing reaching the highest level); becoming a God in your own right with a planet to rule over; Baptism for the dead; etc.
God alone will decide whether or not you will enter Heaven. I believe you are dead wrong but my obligation to you is only to point out the way to salvation and works,tithing or baptism are not among them. The spirit of our Lord leads one to a saving grace.
My entire belief system is based on FAITH.
Maybe I’ll make the Mormon Blog watch again!
May this atheist ask a question? If immersion in water is absolutely essential, then what happened to the “good thief” allegedly crucified alongside of Jesus? Does his lack of baptism preclude his entering Heaven, or is there some wiggle room here?
Francoise,
That is a great question. Baptists don’t believe that Baptism saves you. We are baptized to identify with Christ. It represents a believer being buried with Christ and raised up into a new life.
The theif is in Heaven.
Hello, this is Bill’s wife, Diane– he is away now, and although I don’t have much time to enter discussions… I will offer few scriptures from The Holy Bible (King James version), and also a website which describes the scientific evidence for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon– that is scientific evidence…
Best wishes to all…
Heavenly Father (God) and His Son, Jesus Christ have bodies like we do–only perfected– we are created in their very image and likeness…
Proof:
“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him.” Genesis 1:25-27; 5:1-3
“For I have seen God face to face.” Genesis 32:23-30
Moses and seventy elders of Israel see God. Exodux 24:9-11
“And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.” Exodus 33:11
God’s hand, face, and back parts. Exodus 33:21-30
“With Him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches…” Numbers 12:5-8
“And therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God” James 3: 8-11
“And his servants shall serve Him; and they shall see his face.” Revelation 22: 3-6
“Christ Jesus: who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God” Philippians 2:5-6
“For in Him we live and move and have our being: For we are also his offspring.” Acts 17:24-29
No man hath seen God? Meaning? John 6:46-47
Jesus: I said ye are gods, and I am the Son of God. John 10:34-38
“As there be Gods many and Lords many, (Doubting Thomas told to: “Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side…” John 20:27; 1-Corin 8:5-6
“Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have…” Luke 24:36-43
“Men, which are made after the similtude of God” James 3:9
Angels speaking: “Ye men of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into Heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into Heaven…” Acts 1:9-11
“When the Savior shall appear we shall see Him as He is. We shall see that He is a man like ourselves.” John 1:30; Titus 1:13
“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” Genesis. 1: 27
“And the Lord God said, behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.” Genesis 3:22
******
What about Scientific Evidence of the Authenticity of the Book of Mormon?
…Overview: The Book of Mormon describes an ancient journey through the Arabian peninsula with plausible details such as directions, a verified ancient place name, geographical details, and the description of an unexpected place called Bountiful that now also appears to be verified. These details could not have been fabricated based on what was known in 1830–an even modern “general knowledge” of the Arabian peninsula would not allow a typical educated adult to provide the confirmed details in the Book of Mormon. The only plausible explanation for this is that the author of First Nephi, the book containing the account of the ancient Arabian trek, actually made that trek. The most logical candidate for authorship of First Nephi is Nephi, not Joseph Smith ”
…. (please scroll down on the following page for undeniable scientific evidence for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon– Another Testament of Jesus Christ… which is simply put: the history of the ancient inhabitants of the North-Central-South American continents… decendants of the same Israelites who authored the Old & New Testament of The Holy Bible)….
http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml
Diane,
Blessings to you. Your interpretation of Scripture is distorted at best.
friends,
I didn’t read this blog prepared to cite research and the findings of scholars. But I do want to throw out two thoughts.
First, the field of biblical archaelogy has over the years continued to provide support for the biblcal record. However archaeology has never supported the writings of Joseph Smith and there is no evidence of the cities, civilazations, etc. he wrote of in North America. I don’t think the indians of Mexico and Central America are going to qualify as Jews. Again, I am not offering detailed research but I suggest that anyone interested could research archaeology. One other thought, I would fully expect Mormons to claim there is support for their views. I think you will find in biblical archaeology that many of the researchers were not looking to prove the bible, often they were hoping to discredit it and found evidence to the contrary.
Second, I do not see any reason to believe that Roman Catholicism was the only original church. Rome had a strong chuch but so did Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem and other churches in the ancient middle east and north Africa. The other churches lost their influence due to events such as the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus, about A.D. 70, and the Moslem ascendency of about the 6th century (if I’m off in my dates somewhat, remember that I am writing this on the spur of the moment) and on that basically wiped out almost all the leading centers of Christianity, except for Rome. The position of Rome become a leading one almost by default.
That’s it.
T.W.
Kevin,
Quoting scriptures directly is not “interpretation” … anyone can read the above scriptures for themselves from their own Bible… if you’d like explanations of what Latter Day Saints TRULY believe (instead of what they are PAID to teach unsuspecting students at Christian Theological Seminaries), then simply go to http://www.mormon.org for the scripture-based purpose of life, and the scripture-based nature of God explanations.
I agree with Tim, at least on his first point. I studied archaeology in college, enough to learn how to spell it :^). There is not one shred of physical evidence that any of the people groups Joseph Smith talked about ever existed.
There is ample evidence that Joseph Smith had a reputation for being a story teller, and a con man.
If I were a man living a hundred years ago, and I wanted to come up with my own religion, I would come up with one where I could have power (being God of my own universe), where I could have all the women I want (polygamy), and would allow for my dead relatives to get in to Heaven (baptizing for the dead). Mormonism is a sham, an obvious man-made religion.
Tim,
Regarding your statement:
“However archaeology has never supported the writings of Joseph Smith and there is no evidence of the cities, civilazations, etc. he wrote of in North America.”… I believe you should do some actual reading on the site I offered you, for the scientific evidence… archeologists are joining the church by the number with the discoveries they have made in their digs over the years in Chiapas & Guatemala
alone… The research and discoveries are there for the discerning and thoughtful person… see: http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml
,,, Diane
Jason
My powers of spelling correctly have left me, mea culpea.
TW
Diane or Bill,
There are no archeologists outside of the LDS that believe the deception of your cult.
But even non-believing archeolgists can attest the age of the ancient manuscipts of the Bible.
Kevin,
I promise that you will be able to find another job (along with all the other paid preachers), once light begins to shine where there was once darkenss..
It is only a matter of time before your flock (after being told for so long that they would NOT have to endure a great tribulation) will find that the rapture has not happened, and they are still here suffering through horrible judgements which are about to be poured out without measure upon the inhabitants earth.
At that point, I PROMISE YOU that they will begin to search for the real truth. By then, it will be obvious to them that they have been deceived by the craftiness of man.
But, I love you and know you are doing all you can with the information (or lack thereof) you have.
My wife really was on here this afternoon while I went to see the Gamecocks get beat in Knoxville
Bill,
Nowhere does it forbid paid ministers in the Bible. Your 1 Peter reference is bad interpretation.
Re your answer in No 52- it sounds more ike being drowned to me. LOL
As for the thief in “Heaven”- what do you say to those who believe that all the world’s dead are still in their graves awaiting resurrection? Personally, I don’t care either way, but it’s interesting to see Christian groups slugging it out over these issues.
Bill,
This is Kelly again. Did you offer that website with Mormon archaeology or did your wife? It was in your wife’s post, but you claimed to have offered it. I’m confused.
As it is, I noticed you never really dealt with any of the points she (or most anyone else for that matter) just spouted more questions. I call that avoidance. She dealt with your questions and points, but you failed to deal with hers.
Francoise, good to hear from you again. I hope you are well. Just so you know, this whole thread is based on the idea that Christian groups are not slugging this stuff out. In fact, Christians are having a heated discussion with a Mormon (non-Christian). Theologically, we are extremely different. Sometimes the same names and terms are used, but they mean totally different things to me than they do to Bill. This adds to the confusion and why sadly, so many Baptists are added to Mormonism each year.
Take care Down Under!
Kelly
edit–2nd paragraph–”dealt with any of the points she MADE”
I have heard that more Baptists convert to Mormonism than any other faith group. Does anyone know if that is so?
And just to throw in a monkey wrench. It is an indisputable fact that Islam’s concept of Jesus and God is closer to Orthodox Christianity than is that of Mormonism.
Get out of Hell free card, notwithstanding, Mormonism is quite different than any historical understanding of the Nature of Christ.
MIT,
I’ve heard the same thing. That is why discipleship and apologetics is so important!
Bill,
Just so you know, if you gave another link previous, I offer my humble apologies. Our wives are co-opting our sign ins!!!
Kelly
I, for one orthodox Christian, am one who can honestly say that I have read the book of Mormon cover to cover, as well as the Koran. (certainly as well as the Bible).
I was asked for my “testimony” after I read the book of Mormon. (you see, after you read it, you are supposed to feel a “burning in your bosom” that confirms it is true. My testimony afterwards is/was that was only a complicated incredible fantasy that was dreamed up in the mind of someone whom was seeking attention.
Joseph Smith was NOT a prophet of God, and was simply a liar and a lunatic. If indeed he was visited by another being, it wasn’t an angel of God; it was an agent of Satan, if not Satan himself.
The BoM is NOT the word of God and is only a lie. Any truth contain within is simply plagiarized from the Bible.
Jesus simply does NOT live on a planet near the star Choleb (sp?).
Men CANNOT hope to achieve their own universe and women CANNOT hope to be eternally pregnant, populating their own world.
How can you trust a religion whose main book had to be edited after men landed on the moon? The original said that there were “Quaker-like men inhabiting the moon”.
The difference between the Mormon Jesus and the real Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, is that the Mormon Jesus is the creation of one man’s imagination and the Son of the Living God imagined and created man. Other than that, there is nothing else. I am willing to stake my eternity on that.
The verse most commonly taken out of context by Mormons, “John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” does NOT refer to Jesus walking the Americas. Jesus did NOT appear to the Mayans or American Indians. He appeared ONCE, which happened to be in the middle East. We await his second coming.
Bill, and any other Mormons or other non-Christians reading this; know that Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God loves you! We love you! We want you to know His incredible saving Grace!
The Truth about Jesus can be found in only one place; the BIBLE. Not in any other scripture book. Once you meet the “real Jesus”, then you will know. Until then, you will be deceived by the father of lies.
I pray that God’s mercy will be evident to you and that you will be able to know the Truth, for the Truth will set you free.
I think there are two issues here. One is doctrinal purity. That is something the Mormons will never agree to, it would simply make them one more denomination if they changed (massively) their Christology to a Orthodox position. Even the Monophysites are far closer than Mormons are.
Secondly is their eternal fate. That is something we can not speak to on an individual basis. Each Mormon’s heart is open before the Lord, He hears their faintest cry of faith. I am certain that even through the fabricated clouds of confusion, some do have saving faith.
Jesus, is the only Judge of that condition.
All this talk about Lucifer is interesting — but that passage in Isaiah refers to a ruler of Babylon who claimed to be a god, descended from the goddess known as the morning star (what we now call Venus).
Y’all treat it as if it were referring to the Devil himself.
Hi Bill ( No 17) Re the Catholic Church and the “spin off”. There are many reasons. The RCC was so corrupt, so vile and cruel that people -including devout Catholics – were heartily tired of its excesses. The invention of printing had enabled the Bible to be placed into the hands of whose who could read, and hence question what the RCC had been telling them. And then, of course, there was good old Henry VIII’s yearning for a son and his passion for Anne Boleyn. This paved the road for the Protestant Reformation. Interesting stuff. I highly recommend that you read Tudor history.
Kevin,
I admire your heart for the lost, but it just looks like you were asking for a fight with this post, I don’t see much edifying dialogue, just jousting and posturing about whose faith is right. I’ve seen where God uses the Gospel “drive by” or “bomb” like this post to reach folks, but I think that a friendly relationship that leads to seekers asking questions which leads to sharing the Gospel is probably more effective and is closer to the example of what Christ modeled for us in the Bible.
Rob,
I don’t know what you are talking about. This who I am. I am passionate about lost people. I’m sorry you don’t approve. But I have dealt with this lying religion for too long.
People are going to hell. What am I suppose to do just say we are all God’s children no matter if their lies lead people to hell? I can’t be silent.
I guess my point I was trying to make is that in the end you can always win the argument, but lose the heart at the same time. I guess if it was my blog I would have put the post up and refused to engage in the fruitless arguments I have seen in the comments on this post.
Rob,
I really mean what I said. I love everyone. Have you ever dealt with Mormons? They don’t know how to have a rational discussion. They won’t listen to you. You have to get in their face.
I love it when they come to my house because I keep them there so they don’t go leading my neighbors astray.
I promise you I’m all about relationships. That is why I go to where lost people are. I have a lot of lost people who come to my site. I guarantee you ask any of them, I have been respectful of them as people.
Have you ever dealt with Baptists? Baptists don’t know how to have a rational discussion. They won’t listen. You have to get in their face. They condemn Mormons on issues where Baptists have exactly the same doctrine (the Trinity, for one). They claim all Mormons are going to hell and that they must be “in the face” about it, instead of recognizing that such behaviors are just obnoxious, closer to the inhospitality that Ezekial warned against than the loving people Jesus called us to be.
In a world where kids can go missing and be right under the cops’, and neighbors’, noses for four or five years, where a million refugees come to this nation every year to face silly discrimination even though they are legal refugees fleeing life-threatening situations in their home nations, where 47 million kids lack adequate healthy care, where a significant number (10 million? 20 million?) lack adequate food, who decided the most important task we have is condemning Mormons?
Did I mention that Mormons sponsor the largest private welfare system in the Americas? Did I mention that Mormons sponsor the largest free health care providing health system in North America?
Maybe we could learn something from the Mormons that would contribute to bringing peace to the world, instead of yelling about hellfire all the time.
Ed,
No one said Mormons aren’t good people. Sure they do good things. But being good isn’t good enough.
There is only one way to heaven and that is having a relationship with Jesus Christ. I don’t care what denomination–It is about having a personal relationship with Jesus, period.
One last time….IT IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!!!
The paid preachers (this site is heavy laden with them) literally fear the day when millions of the sheeple awake to the awful state they are in, only to realize they have been duped.
On that day, the preachers will have to go find other employment…and if I was them, I too would be fighting with all I have to keep the sheeple from knowing the truth.
1 PETER 5:2 STRICTLY PROHIBITS PAID MINISTRY, but Kevin and others have yet to come clean on this topic and prove anywhere in the Bible where mega salaries, million dollar book deals, and fake T.V. evengelists are justified.
Their false religion is a multi-million dollar per year business, lining the pockets of those proclaiming half truths to the unsuspecting sheeple! The sheeple will not research the Book of Mormon, the Latter Day Saint Church or any other religion for that matter, in fear that they will lose communion with those who have brainwashed them.
For those of you who really SEEK TRUTH, I invite you to go to your BIBLE and search the following SCRIPTURES…which IS the backbone of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (the Mormon’s). See below….
17 Points of the True Church
Christ organized the Church (Eph 4:11-14)
The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)
The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets (Eph 2:19-20)
The true church must have the same organization as Christ’s Church (Eph 4:11-14)
The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 4:4-10)
***The true church must have NO PAID MINISTRY (Isaiah 45:13, 1 Peter 5:2)***
The true church must baptize by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)
The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)
The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
The true church must teach that God and Jesus are separate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)
The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 22:36-39; Acts 1:9-11)
The officers must be called by God (Heb 5:4; Ex 28:1; 40:13-16)
The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)
The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16 & 29)
“By their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matt 7:20)
WHY are ALL these things important? (Hebrews 13:8)
Re: No 76- yes,I can vouch for Kevin’s being courteous and patient with “lost” heathens like myself!
Kelly Reed (No 14) The word “Catholic” is from late Latin. It was originally Greek -”katholikos”, meaning “in respect of the whole”.
Please read the following in it’s entirety. and then decide if you agree with Kevin when he tells you that Mormon’s are going to hell.
THE LIVING CHRIST
THE TESTIMONY OF THE APOSTLES
THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
As we commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ two millennia ago, we offer our testimony of the reality of His matchless life and the infinite virtue of His great atoning sacrifice. None other has had so profound an influence upon all who have lived and will yet live upon the earth.
He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New. Under the direction of His Father, He was the creator of the earth. “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3). Though sinless, He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He “went about doing good” (Acts 10:38), yet was despised for it. His gospel was a message of peace and goodwill. He entreated all to follow His example. He walked the roads of Palestine, healing the sick, causing the blind to see, and raising the dead. He taught the truths of eternity, the reality of our premortal existence, the purpose of our life on earth, and the potential for the sons and daughters of God in the life to come.
He instituted the sacrament as a reminder of His great atoning sacrifice. He was arrested and condemned on spurious charges, convicted to satisfy a mob, and sentenced to die on Calvary’s cross. He gave His life to atone for the sins of all mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth.
We solemnly testify that His life, which is central to all human history, neither began in Bethlehem nor concluded on Calvary. He was the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world.
He rose from the grave to “become the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Corinthians 15:20). As Risen Lord, He visited among those He had loved in life. He also ministered among His “other sheep” (John 10:16) in ancient America. In the modern world, He and His Father appeared to the boy Joseph Smith, ushering in the long-promised “dispensation of the fulness of times” (Ephesians 1:10).
Of the Living Christ, the Prophet Joseph wrote: “His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
“I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father” (D&C 110:3–4).
Of Him the Prophet also declared: “And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
“For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
“That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:22–24).
We declare in words of solemnity that His priesthood and His Church have been restored upon the earth—”built upon the foundation of . . . apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone” (Ephesians 2:20).
We testify that He will someday return to earth. “And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together” (Isaiah 40:5). He will rule as King of Kings and reign as Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue shall speak in worship before Him. Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our hearts.
We bear testimony, as His duly ordained Apostles—that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come. God be thanked for the matchless gift of His divine Son.
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,90-1-10-1,00.html
THE FIRST PRESIDENCY
THE QUORUM OF THE TWELVE
January 1, 2000
Yup. Standard Christian beliefs, by the look of it.
Francoise,
That is the real problem. It LOOKS like standard Christian beliefs. BUT THEY ARE NOT! They have their own definitions for each of the doctrines, but are in fact perversions of Truth. They LOVE to quote scripture (out of the King James Version only, for some reason) but are masters of taking them out of context to “prove a point”.
Please don’t be fooled.
About the only thing Bill has said so far is the rant about fraudsters making millions off their followers. (How much is the Mormon church’s assets?) I hate this too. For them, it does seem to be more about the money than anything else. There will always be charletons who prey on the naive and hurting.
I pray that through all of this, you will see the Truth and that the God of Creation will show Himself to you in a real way.
Francoise,
I do not have to limit my “proving a point” to the Bible only, but that is the only book the mainstream christians will accept…even though they are just brushing right on past the truths I’ve outlined. How are those perversions of the truth (as it pertains to the Bible(if in fact they were copied word for word from that same Bible)???
Back in #79, please let me know which of those scriptures from the King James Version of the BIBLE (the same one Kevin preaches from weekly) is not a “standard christian belief” which you have labeled them. Which one is a perversion or distortion?
Do not all christians read from these scriptures…or…is their brand of this gospel more of a pick and choose type, wherein they choose only the verses that work for them?
In other words, is the ALL of the BIBLE (from their standpoint) the word of God…or…just the parts they choose to follow???
I think you meant to address this last comment to Nomad, right?
Bill, let me say this: quoting from Scripture doesn’t prove your point. The perversions of truth come from your religion’s definitions of terms. You use the same terms as orthodox Christianity, but you don’t mean the same thing.
Quoting from the Bible is simply quoting from the Bible. That doesn’t mean that your religion actually believes or follows those beliefs. That is evident by the fact that you follow the book of Mormon. If the Bible is sufficient, then why do you need another book?
By the way, in all seriousness, why do Mormons only recognize the King James Version? That is one question that I simply don’t know the answer to.
Bill, I really wish we could sit down and talk in person. Corresponding through a comment section of someone’s blog doesn’t seem very personal and it really appears that you are angry. You are making broad general statements about “All Christians”. That really isn’t fair. I’m sure you don’t like the broad statement “all Mormons”, do you?
You say it is all about the money. I say it is all about the definitions. Perhaps we are at an empasse? Too bad, because I will refuse to argue, just for the sake of arguing. I am not a great debater. Nor am I a great theologian. I am simply someone who loves Jesus and wants the story to be right. I believe in the Jesus of the Bible, not the Jesus of the Book of Mormon; I don’t believe that Jesus ever existed.
Oh, and to answer your last question, I can’t answer for all Christians. For me, however, I believe all of the Bible is the Word of God. There are others, however, who don’t see it that way. I can ONLY answer for myself.
Seriously, what’s the deal with King James only? That is really interesting.
Dear Nomad,
I want you to know that I too once proclaimed to hate the Mormon’s, but that was before my heart was softened. It was during the time when I was a Baptist and before I leraned the unshakable truth. I testify of this in the name of Jesus Christ.
The King James (as described to me) was the original text of the Bible (taken from the 12 disciples before they were murdered)…before 21 of the original books were removed, and before the scriptures were changed in order to fit someone’s agenda
It was during a time I cannot pinpoint with accuracy (due to my lack of historical knowledge)…but…somwehere around the Constantine era. We believe it to be the LITERAL WORD OF GOD…as long as it is translated correctly.
Every member (worldwide) of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints will study the New Testament in its entirety in 2007, in Sunday School every Sunday.
Plrase find the link below from the official web site of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It lists the books we treasure dearly. You may be surprised.
http://scriptures.lds.org/
Nomad,
I am not in any way trying to push my church on you or others. This whole thing began last week, when I somehow mysteriously stumbled onto this blog.
Here, I found those who desired to bash other religions as not being true or sincere in their love for our Savior the Lord Jesus Christ.
I simply want to tell anyone who will hear, that the Mormon doctrine is not a cult as described in wikpedia or Websters.
Our convictions, our love for a Jesus Christ, and for all of HIS children are precious to us, and are furthermore the truth. If there is anyone who is pure in heart who sek the truth, we invite them to learn more.
If you or anyone reading this post really has a desire to know what we believe, I would invite you to visit the link below.
There you’ll find the 14 Articles of Faith. There is nothing hidden. It is the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in it’s most simple and humble form.
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,FF.html
Bill,
I love everyone REALLY! There is no hate towards Mormons. I hope you continue to come to this blog. I’d love to come to Gatlinburg and hang out with you at Ripleys or go to Dollywood!
Bill,
“1 PETER 5:2 STRICTLY PROHIBITS PAID MINISTRY, ”
-again as Kevin, I and others have said, your interpretation is faulty. Nothing about that verse prohibits pastoral compensation and there are other verses previously cited in this post that show the church is obligated to compensate its shepherds. OPEN YOUR EYES!
“but Kevin and others have yet to come clean on this topic and prove anywhere in the Bible where mega salaries, million dollar book deals, and fake T.V. evengelists are justified.”
-bill, no one is justifying this by any means. There are some abusing this- shame on them. But i know of quite a few ‘prominent’ pastors who make a generous salary….only to turn around and give most if not all of it away! See Rick Warren and Johnny Hunt.
I dare say if you would open your heart to the Jesus of John 1 you would not get hung up on such menial issues.
Kevin,
In response to what Rob #75 said, I think your blog and posts like this are awesome! This is what blogging should really be all about. Show people the compassion and TRUTH about Jesus Christ. Keep up the good work!!!
To all of you…I have turned my heart to the only Jesus of John 1, and I DO love HIM as I also love each of you!!!
You should be commended for exemplifying the love of Jesus Christ! I KNOW for certain that everyone, including the maintainer of this blog has their hearts in right place!
And since your hearts are in the right place, learn to realize that God (our Heavenly Father) who is one in purpose with Jesus and the Holy Ghost)…but…also a separate being, sent HIS son into the world, so that no one should perish, but ALL could have eternal life, through the atonement.
Don’t be so judgemental of others unless you are willing to diligently search to know the truth about them…rather thsan what others have told you.
In other words, you cannot make an educated judgement unless you are educated, nor can you make a blanket statement that Mormon’s are going to hell unless you can prove it!!! Anything less than proof would be speculation based on what???
I DO NOT push our Church onto others, but we would delight in knowing that some of you would truly take the time to learn (before calling names and making unbecoming remarks) what we are about. Anyone who will judge without first testing the spirits is only heaping destruction upon his own soul.
Rather than judge without first knowing what it is that you are arguing against, please simply look at the factual evidence. If you do so with an open heart and mind, there is NO WAY you can come away still calling the Mormon’s a cult.
Go to: http://www.mormon.org/welcome/0,6929,403-1,00.html
I just think it’s quite odd that despite what Kevin wrote in the post – That Mormons are dead wrong and going to Hell – but there is redemption thru Christ our Lord – That Bill is still trying to evangelize everyone to the Mormon faith. Wake up Bill and read the post again – according to Kevin and the Bible , all Mormons are doomed unless they repent.
Rob,
I didn’t quite say it that way. I never said a specific group is going to hell. The Bible makes it clear:
“If a person doesn’t know Jesus they are going to Hell.”
This is anyone, Baptist, Pres. Methodist, Assembly of God, Non-denom, Mormon, Buddhist, Muslim, etc…
The fact is anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord can be saved! That is GOOD NEWS! That is what I want to focus on.
Slagle,
You are to be pitied. We are no more going to hell for following the teachings of Joseph Smith, than are the followers Tim LeHaye, Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Hal Lindsey, or Kevin Bussey.
Why would a book that Joseph Smith translated send a person to hell, while a book written by the men listed above is proclaimed as the final and authoritative word of truth???
Since you are proclaiming your followership of Jesus Christ, when did HE (Jesus) tell you Mormon’s were going to hell? What chapter and verse of the Bible states that Mormon’s are a cult, or that Mormon’s are going to hell?
You should write a book about it, and it might make you some cash!
Bill,
The book of Mormon has been proven by greater apologetics than myself to be a heretical piece of delusional make believe. I judge the writings of the other people you listed by whether or not it lines up next to the teachings of the Bible. The final and authoritative word of truth is the Bible and truth also has a name and that is Jesus.
Kevin,
I understand where I might have misquoted you ( and I apologize), but please answer me this, can anyone be a practicing devout Mormon and still be considered a true follower of Jesus?
That is a good question Rob. I would say they would be a backslidden Christian. That is something only God would know.
Well Rob,
You were the one who said the Mormon’s were false. That would mean that you have first hand knowledge of the same. Again, when did Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost tell you that?
I do not want to know what an apologetic (another Satanic/pagan term) said. I want to know what you have been told by God, Jesus Christ, or the Holy Ghost.
Do you think that God, in all HIS infinite wisdom, grandeur and creation, would ONLY present one small, incomplete and doctored set of scriptures (the Bible) as HIS final word?
DO you think that HE would only mention peoples living in the area around the Meditterranean Sea?
Do you think HE is that small??? How do you justify the Dead Sea Scrolls???
Lastly, I have spent days on this blog telling you in no uncertain terms tha tI follow Jesus Christ. I have provided scriptural and documented evidence of the same. I have proclaimed HIM (Jesus Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of the world…born of a virgin named Mary, crucified on Calvary and arose to eternal life, and who now lives today, and IS the ONLY way back to HIS Father In Heaven. He is our mediator.
Please tell me other than the Baptists which religions/denominations/peoples qualify (in your opinion) to be followers of Jesus, and to Kevin…..WHY would I be backslidden when I sigularly strive to serve the Lord valiantly, than any other 20 quote christian (collectively)that you know???
Bill,
Bless your heart. I have no doubt you are a “good” person. But how good do you have to be?
I have to be VERY GOOD!!! I cannot call myself a true follower of Jesus Christ, drink beer on Friday nights with my Sunday School class, beat my kids on Saturday, cheat on my wife on Saturday night, backbite the preacher before Church on Sunday morning, lobby the deacons to gossip about other members, then walk in and pay only a portion of a tithe rather than the COMMANDED 10%, sit on the front row and raise my hand in the air, shout Amen…and at the end of it all..have any hope of receiving a F-U-L-L-N-E-S-S of all God has awaiting those who diligently serve HIM and endure to the end.
This is what the SBC taught me for 20 years…where I served as a Royal Ambassador Leader, softball coach and held several leadership positions.
Kevin.what I should have clarified earlier (much earlier) is that I think many Baptists and professing christians WILL most definitely return to live with and see Jesus Christ again (as we all hope to do)…BUT…wthe Latter Day Saints are working towards (by serving and enduring to the end) is for a much higher and lofty goal.
You see,,what the Baptist’s never taught me was the truth. That is…there are 3 distinct degrees of glory (or parts of Heaven), and unless we do many things (especially strive to keep ALL of the commandments) we may end up where many will be..which is a lower part of the kingdom, where Jesus can minister..but where those who are there will be eternally be cut off from greater blessings by living again with their Father In Heaven (Celestial Kingdom).
I lovingly refer you to Matthew where the degrees of glory are described as Celestial…Terrestrial….Telestial and they are compared to the brightness of the sun, moon and stars.
Do you think that if your wife works harder, stays later, and strives more diligently to magnify her company than anyone else within that company, it would be fair for them to receive the same bonus, benefits and promotions that she would certainly be entitled to???
Bill,
I think this was probably a typo, but the truth slipped into it. You said in comment #88: “Our convictions, our love for aa Jesus. Tragically, the Jesus you worship is wholly a creation of Joseph Smith’s fertile imagination, and not the Jesus that died on a Roman cross some 2000 years ago. More tragically still, the Jesus you worship has no power to save anyone.
Bill,
It is not about being fair. An employer can pay how much and whoever they want.
Certainly a typo. The Jesus I love and strive to serve, has the power to save all.
Does Billy Graham, Jack Van Impe, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have fertile imaginations?
The Jesus we worship LIVES today. That is why we do not glorify a cross. It represents death…but…HE LIVES, and has ALL power to save…but…only if people accept HIS free gift.
If they accept HIS free gift, then they will follow HIM always…rather than when it is convenient.
They will proclaim the entire Bible as the word of God, rather than pick and choose which scriptures soothe their carnality.
If they do not follow HIM, they are not followers. I can say that I am a great pitcher…but…if I get on the mound and walk the first ten batters, there would be doubt cast upon my credibility.
We (humbly including myself) can say we are christians…but like a song once implied, we need “A Little Less Talk, and A Lot More Action.”
See, that’s exactly the sort of “in your face” made up garbage I’m talking about. How could the Jesus of the Bible be different from the Jesus of the Bible? No way possible, but in order to drive a wedge between Mormons and other Christ followers, in order to talk trash, someone will say there’s a difference.
Astounding.
Discouraging. Jefferson was right — time to tremble when we consider that God is just.
Well, I had to go to bed for a while, but I’m back up now.
First and foremost, let me say that I DO NOT HATE MORMONS! I have a disdain for your system of beliefs, but not for any individual person. THAT MUST BE UNDERSTOOD!
Bill, thanks for your explanation of “why KJV” and more of your personal history. It really explains a lot.
I am particularly intrigued with the explanation of the KJV. You do realize that it was written in the year 1611, don’t you? It is impossible to be the original scriptures of the 12 Disciples for it was written a millennium and a half after they all died. English wasn’t even a language at the times of the 12 Disciples.
I have read much the LDS church has to say about the article of faith and have looked at their website in earnest.
I have a question for you: you specifically say that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, right? Will you explain how she got pregnant? Don’t use church words. Be explicit. Explain to me, from the view of the Mormon church, how ‘it’ happened. Please go on to explain where Jesus is right now. Please go on to further explain how many more sons of God there are in other worlds.
Bill, if you don’t know the answers to these questions, then you don’t know what it is you are following. Please, please answer these questions. Be honest; don’t hold back for the sake of sensitivity or church secrets. Tell it like it is! Perhaps we can then understand the “unshakeable truth”, just as yourself. Don’t be selfish; help me understand!
And the asking of such an explanation serves what Godly, Christian purpose? You’re fishing for reasons to drive a wedge. All this work to sow strife is troubling.
We believe Mary was a virgin. She was conceived by the Holy Ghost Matthew 1:20
We belive Jesus ascended to HIS Father in Heaven.
“I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and to your God.” John 20:17
We belive that God created the heavens and the earth, as described in Genesis, but also as described in the Pearl of Great Price.
We believe that we can become God’s.
“I said ye are God’s” John 10:34
“For though there be that are called God’s, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be God’s many and Lord’s many) I Corinthians
1 Corinthians 8:5
We believe Jesus has a body of flesh and bone.
“Then he saith to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.”
John 20:27
Ed,
Sorry you think that. The wedge is already there. Sorry you can’t see that either.
Bill,
You didn’t answer the question. Go ahead and tell everyone what the LDS really believes…
That’s it for me. No more on this post. It has become futile.
Nomad,
You will be back to read this post…I have confidence ha/ha.
As per your comment “it has become futile,” this is so only because I am able to answer your questions with truth and light.
Every question you had in your last post, was answered by me with humility, efficiency and truthfulness. The readers only have to look at #’s 104-106 and see for themselves that I answered each question and more, exactly as you desired.
I have quoted verse after verse of scriptures (from your Bible) which describes why/how we believe. You on the other hand, have yet to come up with one verse that disspells my beliefs, and furthermore, where do you have gain knowledge or the right to tell me what is in my heart?
For the sake of continuing to argue however, and for the sake of continuing to attempt to disprove people of another faith… who love and serve the same Jesus Christ you claim to know, you are extremely disappointed that this argument cannot continue to the point that you beat me down.
This was satans (Lucifer) plan in the war in heaven during the pre-existance, and it was a war of words…truth and light versus lies and darkness.
Of course he lost the war, and along with him, a third of the host of heaven were eternally cast out.
There is NO defense against truth, and I am therefore glad you have decided to lay down your weapons
Bill,
Once again you avoided the significance of Nomad’s post.
Your explanation of the KJV is remarkable and historically innacurate.
Care to supply some explanation that resembles reality?
You attempted to answer one of his questions but either “typoed” or didn’t read carefully. Nomad asked how Jesus was conceived, but you answered how Mary was conceived. You said, “she was conceived by the Holy Ghost.”
Maybe you could have said it like former LDS Presidents and theologians:
Mormonism teaches that Jesus’ incarnation was the result of sexual relations between the flesh and bone Heavenly Father and Mary. Jesus is the only earthly offspring so conceived. Mormon theologian Bruce McConkie states, “Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.”
Editorial–that would be sexual
He also writes, “God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; He was born in the same personal, real and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about this paternity; He was begotten, conceived, and born in the normal and natural course of events, for He is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says.”
James Talmage wrote, “Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh.”
Mormon theology teaches that the Father was the main person involved in Mary’s conception, not the Holy Spirit. Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, “Christ is not the Son of the Holy Ghost, but of the Father.”
Care to explain?
Kelly
Nomad’s question was…”How did Mary get pregnant?”
Kelly…the real question is…IF I worship Jesus Christ and believe that HE is the Savior of the world, what do you care?
Bill,
Worshipping has nothing to do with salvation. It is having a personal relationship with Christ.
There is one way to heaven and that is not a Mormon, Muslim, Baptist, Pres. or any other religion or denomination thing. It is following Jesus through Faith in Him.
We can’t earn it. It is a “FREE GIFT” period! If you have to earn it, it is not a gift.
Kevin,
Worshipping DOES have something to do with salvation. What NUT is going to worship someone if they have not accepted HIS gift???
But after that, they must continue to accept it. If they give it back (meaning they do not continue in the Strait & Narrow, they cannot be guaranteed to receive ALL HE has to offer. In other words, did they really accept it in the first place?
They WILL get some reward, but HELL (a spiritual place and not a physical place) is knowing for all eternity that you could have received more.
Can you imagine what a living HELL it would be if you knew all of your friends were gathered at Bryant-Denny for eternity, the Million Dollar Band is playing Roll Tide, it is an electrifying atmosphere, and happiness all around…BUT…after receiving a free ticket, you can NEVER go there…just because you did not do all you should have to prepare for the trip!!!
Bill,
Your ticket is to receive the luxury box ticket that Jesus gives for FREE!
I cannot make it to the luxury box, if I squander my time and resources along the way
I’d only deserve a seat in the student section (God forbid)…or…I’d be sent to Jordan-Hare instead. Ultimate HELL!
So a Mormon posts the official doctrine from the Mormon church, and says what he believes. Nomad4God says that can’t be right, the Mormon doesn’t have right what the Mormon believes.
That is the problem, in a nutshell. If those one wishes to hate won’t believe the things one wants to hate them for, one must ascribe to them beliefs they do not hold, in order to hate them correctly.
Don’t forget to teach your children the same. “They must be carefully taught.”
Ed,
Nomad never said that. The point is the Mormon religion is based on lies. There are many good people but the Book of Mormon is plagerized KJV of the Bible.
It has dwaned on me that Kevin himself, may well be Nomad under a different name
Kevin,
Where in the Bible is King Benjamin, Moroni, the Jaredires, the Laminites, the Nephites, the Land of Bountiful, the gold plates,the story of Levi, the Stripling Warriors..and…the GADIANTON ROBBERS mentioned??? There are thousands more!
If you cannot show me where these are in your Bible, you have NOT spoken the truth your constituency, in the post above!
Let us not forget not forget that anciently, the Bible itself, foretold of the coming of the Book of Mormon in the last days. It is found in Ezekiel 37: 16-19.
I have provided a link below, which is the entire Book of Mormon, along with a title page, an intorduction, and the sworn testimony of 3 witnesses who saw the gold plates which were translated.
Go to: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/contents
Ed Darrell,
Thank you wherever you are!
Kevin, re comment 89- would you love someone who murdered your wife and kids? Be honest, now!
Frankly, I don’t believe that it’s possible to love everyone- you would sure be spreading your love pretty thinly, if that were the case. If you support Bush’s war in Iraq, you can’t, ipso facto, love everyone.
Bill,
Your interpretation of scripture is poor. That is one reason people like me, Nomad, Kelly, Jamie, Jason & others went to Seminary to be trained to translate the Bible from the original language.
Kevin Bussey,
You specifically told readers of this post yesterday (see # 116) that the Book of Mormon was a fraud. You said it was plaigarized from the King James Version of the Bible!!!
I then humbly showed you example after example where this IS NOT so, asking you to explain to, or to show the sheeple who trust so much in you, where these stories are in the Bible!
You were given a scant few of the hundreds of thousands (LOOK AT # 117)of the Book of Mormon which ARE NOT found in the Bible at all.
Now, once light and truth has shined into the crevaces of lies and darkness, your best defense is to tell me the lame story that you and others were trained at a seminary to translate the Bible! How self righteous!!!
Don’t you know that anyone who is filled with the Holy Spirit of God can decipher for themselves anything pertaining to the majesty of our God!
Let me tell you (and especially your bloggers) that seminaries (just like most colleges) are filled with self righteous proofessors teaching false doctrine, based on the false opinions of others. It is a trickle down effect, whereas they were taught by those who taught by those who taught flasehoods…always based on falsehoods!
Then, pastors like yourself are sent out into the world to spread these lies to your sheeple, many of whom pay you and your comrades thousands of dollars every year to spread your venom and insight your flock to do the same.
All the while, your Bible STRICTLY PROHIBITS PAID MINISTRY (1 PETER 5:2) in the first place. But thena gain, the Bible also teaches us to love our neighbors as ourselves. Right?
Now, you have the nerve to tell me that my interpretation of scripture is poor. Remember that I was not interpreting scripture.
Instead, I quoted scriptures from the KJV, and asked that you (being a trained professional)teach us. But you have yet to explain to those sheeple who have sadly placed their trust in you what it all means!
Please go back and tell us (since you are a trained professional) what the Celestial kingdom, and the Terrestrial Kingdom are, as mentioned in 1 CORINTHIANS 15:40.
Please go back and explain to us what the 2 sticks are, which will be combined into one stick in the Lord’s hand at the last days…as found in EZEKIEL 37: 16-19.
Please go back and tell us why 1PETER 5:2 doesn’t really mean what it simply and cleraly states…calling PAID MINISTRY “FILTHY LUCRE”
Since you nhave been trained, it should be no problem for you to find NEW TESTAMENT scriptures that dispute any of these things…right???
I have just logged onto this site (somehow) by mistake probably. Getting in on the middle of a debate is always risky.
Being a member of a rather large christian church, I do not have an affinity to the Mormon’s, however I would love for the pastor to answer this man’s (Bill) questions with Biblical proof, rather than personal opinions.
Thank you!
Kevin,
We’re still waiting for your analysis.
Monty and Bill,
Personal opionions? I don’t think so. The Bible clearly says there is one way to heaven. John 14:6 Jesus says:
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
As for the horrible interpretation of 1 PETER 5:2, it does not forbid paid ministry.
I suggest you read the Mormon Illusion by Floyd C. McElveen.
Bill,
I’m curious about something. Since you mentioned the pre-existence war in heaven:
I’m wondering if you can tell us what happened to those spirit children who remained neutral in that war.
Wes,
The spirits who remained neutral (in their pre-mortal life) are probably the same ones who now sit on the fence in this mortal life.
Revelation 12:1-11 describes the war in heaven in clear detail. It tells us that one third of heaven was cast dwon with Satan/Lucifer. Here is the KJV for your reference.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/12/1-9#1
Don’t you realize that you existed before you came here???
Lovingly,
Bill
Bill,
We didn’t exist until God made us.
YES we did. Read it for yourself out of your Bible. We were spirits, created long before we came to earth and received a physical body!
“How art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art tho8u cut down to the ground which didst weaken the nations!” ISAIAH 14:12
Bill,
The reason I asked is that, until 1978, the official LDS position was that they came to earth as black people (their men unfit for the priesthood), their passivity not having merited eternal destruction.
I was just wondering what the “new revelation” was on that.
That was never the belief of the LDS Church.
The spirits whom were cast out of heaven, will never have a body (as we have), and whom like Satan, are miserable for eternity.
Black people (through revelation) received the Priesthood in 1978. We have many temples in Africa, and those dear brothers and sisters are accepting the gospel and are now joining the church by the thousands Amen!
So, Bill, to be clear, you said “that was never the belief of the LDS Church.” Are you saying that Mormon scriptures do not teach that black skin is a curse from God?
I said black people are most beloved of the Lord. The Church is growing around the world, and we have hundreds of thousands of wonderful brothers and sisters of every color and nationality.
We presently have Temples in Adora Ghana, Aba Nigeria, and Johannesburg South Africa.
We love all of God’s children, regardless of skin color
Bill,
You still didn’t answer Wes’s question.
Kevin,
Trust me when I tell you that this is a road you do not want to go down. It would only heap coals upon your head and condemnation upon the SBC…I promise!
So, as a gentleman, I will not go down that road (topic) which would make you and Wes most uncomfortable.
Well,
we are big men. We want to hear the truth.
The history of the SBC with regards to slavery in this country is well-documented, and bringing it up as a diversion would not be useful in this discussion.
The diversion would be from the fact that the Mormon scriptures do in fact teach that black skin is a curse from God, and this history within the LDS church is irreconcilable with the belief that the President of the Church is a true prophet of God.
President Brigham Young taught that the black man would “not receive the blessings of the priesthood nor his seed, until the last of the posterity of Abel had received the priesthood, until the redemption of the earth.”
Contrast that with President Spencer W. Kimball’s 1978 declaration that “the long-awaited day has come,” and it’s clear that someone here is not a true prophet of God.
So I’ll try one more time: Are you saying that Mormon scriptures do not teach that black skin is a curse from God?
I would be truthful and say, that in the early conception of many churches, there were mistakes made.
Just as there were many plantation and slave masters within the Southern Baptist Church, there were also wrongs made by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
No excuses from me….but…you may be interested to note that Evander Holyfield and Gladys Knight are but a few members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Read about the terrible history, and reversal of poiliy here:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon110.html
Bill,
Your reply is nothing but mere obfuscation, so I’ll try one more time, and this time, a “yes” or “no” will suffice as a reply.
Are you saying that Mormon scriptures do not teach that black skin is a curse from God?
By the way, Bill, since you refuted nothing in my comment above (136), I’m assuming that you acknowledge that either Brigham Young or Spencer W. Kimball was a false prophet. Which one was it, do you think?
Well, I lean more toward Billy Graham, Jack Van Impe, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Dr. Stanley, Adrian Rogers, Kevin Bussey and many others. What say you?
I’d be happy to agree with you on any of the above if you could point out just one instance wherein they made some predictive pronouncement, claiming it to be from God, which was proven to have been wrong.
Just one specific example will do.
Billy Graham…
http://www.cuttingedge.org/News/n1082.cfm
Falwell, Dobson, Hinn and others…
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/wolves_in_sheep’s_clothing.htm
Falwell, Hinn, Roninson and others…
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/wolves_in_sheep’s_clothing.htm
Jerry Falwell…
http://www.skeptictank.org/falwjew.htm
Benny Hinn…
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/tbn.htm
Pat Robertson…
http://www.moriel.org/articles/discernment/church_issues/pat_robertson_false_prophet_again.htm
Jack Van Impe (once an accordian player for Billy Graham)…
http://www.gospelgrace.com/falseprophets/jackvanimpe/JackVanImpe.html
Wes..I know that everyone of the men mentioned above are good faithful men.
I also know that the early Presidents of the LDS Church were humans, and subject to human frailties and mistakes.
Should we continue to go down this road?
Bill,
Those men spoke for themselves not all Christianity.
Precisely!
Interesting.
Are you implying that just as the individual pastors you listed speak for themselves and not all of Christianity, that your prophets only speak for themselves and not all of Mormonism?
Do your prophets make mistakes from time to time in what they proclaim to be of God?
Just trying to understand what you’re getting at.
John,
Bingo!
Bill,
Benny Hinn is not a “good faithful” man; he is deceived and a deceiver. Pat Robertson is deceived, as is Jack Van Impe. For the others, you’ve yet to provide a specific example that meets my three-pronged test (prediction, explicitly from God, proven wrong), and in any case, this fascinating rabbit trail diverts attention from the fact that you cannot or will not answer my questions.
So, to review:
1. Are you saying that Mormon scriptures do not teach that black skin is a curse from God?
2. Who’s the false prophet, Young or Kimball?
Still waiting…
Wes,
Trying to reason with a mormon is like trying to reason with a drunk. Due to being under the influence, it is simply impossible to get a straight answer or a rational thought.
I think mormons are ashamed of their true beliefs; they certainly don’t want them ever actually published. Why else would they duck and dodge so much? All Bill has done is to answer a question with a question; the mark of a con man. All they will EVER do is quote from the KJV (KJV for crying out loud!) and put it back on you. I honestly think they are either incapable of answering a yes or no question or their deceit is so complete by the evil one that they don’t see how incredibly silly they appear by “turning” the argument back on the questioner rather than actually answering it themselves. Then, they say that you never answered your question, why should they answer yours?
Wes, keep bird dogging this turncoat.
Yes Wes…keep bird dogging me. I love it! By the way, will you be at the big meeting in Atlanta next year, when brothers Carter and Clinton launch their new (even more liberal) baptist church?
Bill,
No, I’ll not be attending that particular meeting. Again:
1. Are you saying that Mormon scriptures do not teach that black skin is a curse from God?
2. Who’s the false prophet, Young or Kimball?
What is this about (attached)? Is this legitimately associated with LDS beliefs (past or present)? Scroll down past the first screen to the paragraph that begins, “The Lord segregated the people ….”
http://lds-mormon.com/racism.shtml
Brian,
That page contains quotes about race from Mormon leaders throughout their history, including the aforementioned Presidents Young and Kimball.
Incidentally, Brigham Young said that everything he said in a sermon had the same authority for Mormons as scripture, once he had edited the manuscript of the sermon. The quotes on that page are from edited manuscripts.
To Wes and others…my answer to your question is found in the article below. Regardless of your beliefs, you will all enjoy reading from the link provided:
http://www.angelfire.com/ga/kevgram/racism.html
Bill,
The article says nothing that answers the 2 questions that Wes asked you.
Please state your answers plainly to the 2 questions:
1. Are you saying that Mormon scriptures do not teach that black skin is a curse from God?
2. Who’s the false prophet, Young or Kimball?
Please refrain from the rabbit hunts you send us on by linking to articles that do not answer these 2 questions.
Bill,
Thanks for proving my point.
Thanks for the clarification, Wes.
Bill,
Does this or does this not (below) reflect current Mormon beliefs?
Jesus is the first spirit child begotten in heaven by Elohim (God) and one of Elohim’s wives. However, he is not the only begotten son since Jesus’ brother, Lucifer (who became Satan), was also begotten by Elohim, in addition to billions of other spirit children. When it was time for Jesus to come to the world to redeem mankind, Elohim came to earth, married the Virgin Mary and had sexual relations with her to produce the baby Jesus. Jesus grew up, married Mary, Martha and Mary Magdalene, and paid for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane before being crucified.
Bill, is this the Jesus you follow?
Martin…you have tried to run approximately
9 questions into one. Were you poorly trained in covert brainwashing?
Okay, one question: How many women did Jesus have as wives during His time on earth?
I really don’t know. How many? I know King David must have had over 500…and he was most beloved of the Lord.
Bill,
I’d sure like to hear your answers to my questions back in comment 152.
Bill,
Once again, thanks for proving my point.
It is very funny YOU brought up the brain washing thing.
OK, just answer the question about that being the Jesus you follow(the description in #164). Yes or no. Answer the question. You are starting to look foolish. I can tell you are not. Just answer, please.
[...] been engaging a Mormon named Bill in a wide-ranging discussion over on Kevin Bussey’s blog, and to confront him with what the LDS church teaches and get him [...]
Bill,
I just re-read your comment in #167. Are you saying that Jesus DID have a wife? Can you provide Biblical evidence for this?
Martin,
This is what I do not understand about some of you men. I specifically said “I don’t know.”
You then come back, and ask (like a self righteous all knowing and perfected interrogator) “are you saying Jesus DID have a wife? Can you prove Biblical evidence for this?”
I don’t know means…I DON’T KNOW. Which part of that did you not understand?
My question to you is…do you have Biblical evidence that he did not??? If not, then we are both in the same boat.
Once again, thanks for proving my point.
You are excellent at turning it back. Kudos. Your ward leader must be very very proud of you.
Now, answer the question posed above. Is that the Jesus you follow?
Martin…please forgive my sarcastic humor here, but did you ride the little short yellow bus to shcool?
Bill,
Is this the Jesus you follow? Yes or no.
Martin,
Do you have my birth certificate? Reason I ask is…you act like my daddy???
Best wishes to all! This will be my last post.
This blog is a most peculiar medium and format, in which it is claimed…that God’s love is being shared with others.
I wonder if HE..the Lord Jesus Christ would recognize it that way?
Thanks to all for once again opening my eyes. This blog has been both a real blessing and a furthering confirmation to me, concerning choices I made several years ago. Now more than ever, I am certain they were correct.
Good bye and best wishes to all! I wish each of you every blessing you are entitled to throughout life and the eternities!
Bill
Bill,
I wish you would stay around. You have challenged my faith & I’m gtateful. I don’t want you to spend eternity away from God because you were deceived.
You’ll notice he NEVER did answer my question. How sad. How very very sad.
Bill,
It’s a shame you won’t stay around. I’d sure like to have the opportunity to discuss theological matters with you more. What Kevin stated applies to me as well… your questions have challenged me to examine scripture quite a bit this week, and I’m grateful for the chance they gave me to grow more firm in my faith.
I’d like to think that the questions myself and others have posed to you here have challenged you as well. I do hope your departure is not due to a desire to avoid having your beliefs questioned. If your beliefs are indeed true, such questioning should do nothing but further your faith and give you chance to share it with us. If not, you might find that truth is really presented here. Either way… it’s a positive result.
I’ll be praying for you.
I love your Website, you are so true.
I do not know why anyone would want to follow someone other than Jesus the Son of God who is God.
I love everyone, but not as much as I love God. We are all equal. I definitely love how you say, “You are entitled to worship anyone that you want. You are entitled to be wrong.” I loved it. Good job. God Bless you.
[...] Faith, God, Apologetics, Relationships at 4:07 pm by nysaintinsc I had been reading for two days a blog site on which a preacher has been entertaining dialog, against Mormons. It has been an interesting [...]
How refreshing!!!
Evil
Justice
Love
Forgiveness
These four only converge at the foot of the bloody cross of Jesus Christ, the savior of mankind.
[...] Have I mentioned that “I Love Mormons?” [...]
[...] Boy do we have a lot of work to do. There are a lot of people who are falling for this cult. They are nice people with good morals but being good won’t get you into heaven. Did I mention that I love Mormons! [...]
About 3 years ago I dropped into a black hole – four months of absolute terror. I wanted to end my life, but somehow [Holy Spirit], I reached out to a friend who took me to hospital. I had three visits [hospital] in four months – I actually thought I was in hell. I imagine I was going through some sort of metamorphosis [mental, physical & spiritual]. I had been seeing a therapist [1994] on a regular basis, up until this point in time. I actually thought I would be locked away – but the hospital staff was very supportive [I had no control over my process]. I was released from hospital 16th September 1994, but my fear, pain & shame had only subsided a little. I remember this particular morning waking up [home] & my process would start up again [fear, pain, & shame]. No one could help me, not even my therapist [I was terrified]. I asked Jesus Christ to have mercy on me & forgive me my sins. Slowly, all my fear has dissipated & I believe Jesus delivered me from my “psychological prison.” I am a practicing Catholic & the Holy Spirit is my friend & strength; every day since then has been a joy & blessing. I deserve to go to hell for the life I have led, but Jesus through His sacrifice on the cross, delivered me from my inequities. John 3: 8, John 15: 26, are verses I can relate to, organically. He’s a real person who is with me all the time. I have so much joy & peace in my life, today, after a childhood spent in orphanages [England & Australia]. God LOVES me so much. Fear, pain, & shame, are no longer my constant companions. I just wanted to share my experience with you [Luke 8: 16 – 17].
Peace Be With You
Micky
From a Baptist preacher:
http://www.greaterthings.com/Ridenhour/Protestant_Evangelism/TwoSticks/index.html
[...] Bill has decided to grace us with his presence again I wanted to reiterate that “I LOVE MORMONS!” In fact, I love everyone. Just because you disagree with a person doesn’t mean you [...]
mormons are the most manipulating people ever!! the buy people wit material stuff… the church is growing so fast not because of faith but the church gets people to be babtized and then offer them material stuff…
you kno this is true dont deny it
That’s right! Get baptized, get a car!
That’s why there are so many Lamborghinis tooling around Salt Lake City right now. People in Provo (Provolones?) tend to favor Maseratis.
/head-shaking satire mode
Bill,
I’m not accusing you of anything, but simply asking “If there were more to know about Mormonism, would you really want to know it, or would you simply dig in and defend your current position?”
Would you like to discuss Christianity in biblical terms, or in the terms of the Mormon belief system? By your own revelator’s comments in 2003 (Hinkley to the General Counsel) “we believe in a different Jesus”. Also, “the (Mormon) church is either true, or it is false. There is no middle ground.” Would you be willing to discuss that as well? If it was true, would you be willing to show me?
Finally, if I could convince you that you had been tricked, would you leave the (mormon)church for God, or are you more committed to the church than to be with the biblical-God?
Peace always,
Hi everyone … I’m entering some thoughts here, and hope that we all recognise that we are children of God and with that in mind we should respect each other and know that until Jesus Christ actually returns, noone will know who is right or wrong and with this in mind it is not good for anyone to put another faith down.
The only way we can know anything at the moment is by actually communicating with God, …. and I am hoping that anyone claiming to be a christian will humbly turn to God for answers. I live in England and I have come across people calling themselves christian, and yet I do not see the love of God in their actions or in their faces. This is very worrying. Did Jesus spit at people? What has he taught us? You know, I can only recall him loving, healing and telling us to love our neighbour as ourselves, and that if there is a stranger amongst us, to welcome them and treat them kindly. I have not heard him teach anti about other faiths… he didnt need to. His word was enough. Any christian does not need to talk about any faith accept his own… that will draw people to that faith, but when you condemn others and when you spit, when you produce anti literature, and anti movies, you have lost the spirit of love and that spirit that brings joy. Your purpose of as a christian is to spread joy. You are not meant to dig a pit for your neighbour, and it is non of your business which beliefs your neighbour has. That is his business. What brings him joy is what matters. If his faith brings him joy, that is great, leave him alone. You believe that you are right… that brings you joy and that is what you should be spreading. You cannot read peoples hearts, you cannot read peoples minds, and as FAITH is all about believing without evidence, then you have no way of belittling another persons faith. Leave people alone. Surely when you are so unkind with your words, you are not building up God’s kingdom, but creating animosity. Christianity is becoming a mockery in the world … the other religions look at christianity and see it at war with itself. How silly, what a waste of energy. Let anyone that believes they are christian be allowed to worship Christ as they see fit. None of you will know you are right until you are dead, and for that reason just stop where you are and put your efforts in LOVING people no matter which faith they are. I am seeing Christians spit at each other, throw books at each other, throw nasty words at each other…. WHERE is the spirit of JESUS in all this??????????
Please, if you have something to say, speak about YOUR TESTIMONY, YOUR CONVERSION, YOUR COMMUNICATION WITH GOD. For 21 years I have only read about christians slandering other christians, and I have NEVER heard anyone SAYING WHAT IS GREAT ABOUT THEIR FAITH…. they are too busy condemning others…
Please, I am a christian, and I need uplifting by hearing what WONDERFUL things have happened to you since accepting JESUS into your lives. but all I hear is how you have chose a denonination and have piled up dirt balls to throw at all others. I am NOT impressed. And, I shouldnt have thought that Jesus Christ would be over the moon at those people either, to obey the commandments is TO LOVE, forget everything else… your LOVE will win people not your voice of condemnation.
How do people know if their faith is right for them????? Evidence???????? Did God say believe in a faith that gives you evidence it is true???? NO …faith is to be discovered through PRAYER. GOD is only a PRAYER away. Please, stop the arguing, stop the unkindness, stop the belittling. Become Christlike!!!!!!!! Be caring, be loving, do good deeds. Nastiness is of the devil … I NEVER once read of Jesus being unkind to any other faith. JUST PURE LOVING.
God will teach us about himself. We don’t need to tell everyone else what they should believe. Take the scripture, and take it to God… not throw it at others. Scripture and revelation are personal things. I never knew God existed until I prayed. That was when I found him. That was when I found Joy, Peace, Love. I just wanted to wrap people in love when I found out that God lived. To me, everyone is special to God, we are all his Children and HE expects us to respect eachother. He is the JUDGE, not us.
If God does not confirm to you who he is , what he looks like, who he is etc etc, then you will have to wait for the day of Judgement when you will come before him. Until that time, God will not tell you anything if you are going to use it as dirt bombs to throw at other faiths. Gods true children are HUMBLE, you will NEVER find a TRUE FOLLOWER of CHRIST being CRUEL, NASTY, BACKBITING, SINNING, BREAKING COMMANDMENTS, CONDEMNING, HATING, or HURTING. No, and so, with that in mind, I have met very FEW christians in MY life time. Bear this in mind and consider how you act. Your actions will betray who really is YOUR GOD.
This blogg is not a blogg of sharing the love of Jesus Chist… this is just another war of words and scripture. Stop in your tracks and go out into the world and show your love to a mormon , a muslim, a hindu…. but not with ‘you are wrong’, but with, hey, you are a child of God, and we are followers of Christ and for that reason, we extend God’s love to you.!!!!!’
Yes, share love, don;t be bullies. Don’t go breaking hearts!! Don’t take away peoples FREE AGENGY to BELIEVE what they in their heart believe is true. If they are God’s children, he will gently lead them along… and not through BULLIES LIKE YOU. You cannot force people to believe you, it is a free will thing. The more anti stuff that comes out of your mouths, repels me from you. The less God like you are , the more I believe that God is not in you.
MEEKNESS and MILDNESS…… not sticks and stones and name calling and insults. No wonder God is going to cause such catastrophe when Jesus Christ returns, and no wonder it says in Revelations that the people found following God would be a number that can be counted. About 10 % of all people calling themselves christians, will actually be worthy of HIS name. Is that you????? Do YOUR actions make you HIS?
A very saddened christian, observing the christian world, my heart bleeds, and what a sham and what a shame.
In revelations, the last book of the bible, it says that if the words in that book are taken, errored, or written in any different way they are not true, which means that the book of mormon is false, and no one should believe in it, because all of it is, is a huge cult that you get yourself messed up in if you go by what they say and preach. Jesus Christ is your lord and savior, there is a heaven and a hell, and to leave eternal you have to believe in him and worship him for the rest of your days. Joseph Smith a man just like me and you made up the mormon religion in the 1800s, which anyone who makes up a religion it defenitly has to be false. If you would like to live eternally in heaven. Your spirit and soul will lead you in the right path, mormon is no good, they are all going to hell! and i’m not saying this to be mean or any of the such. I am speaking right from my heart, and following by the bible because jesus christ, my heavenly father, is my savior forever:)
Not only are you wrong when you claim that Mormons “worship” Joseph Smith, but that very idea is abhorrent to Mormons. How can you claim Mormons don’t know Jesus Christ when you yourself clearly don’t understand what Mormons believe?