Actually it isn’t breaking news, I’ve known it all my life. But I don’t get why all of these celebrities and athletes are announcing to the world that they are “Homosexual” or “Gay.” Should I really care?
Recently several athletes and celebrities have written books and had press conferences to announce that they are homosexual. Neil Patrick Harris (Doogie Howzer) revealed his sexuality here. Former *NSYNC star Lance Bass is out of the closet. Former NBA player John Amaechi has just written a book. I don’t even remember the guy so why the big deal?
I don’t hear people having press conferences to tell the world they are adulterers. When is the last athlete, politician or movie star writing a book about being “Heterosexual.” Why is it courageous to come out of the closet? That is their business, not mine. I don’t want to know. If a person choses to live a sinful lifestyle that is their choice but don’t rub my face in it.
What do you think?
Filed under: homosexuality
thanks for coming out of the closet, kevin. i’m inspired and encouraged!
Joe,
Thanks, with friends like you it gave me strength and courage.
I’m sexual and it’s a gift from God that I can either enjoy in its proper God-designed context or can abuse and allow to destroy me. That’s the heart of the matter. God’s purpose. His glory.
Amen Bryan!
Interestingly enough, I had not heard any of those guys had come out, till you told me Keven… so did you ‘out’ them to me?
I guess if they wanna say “Lookee Me!” that’s their option. Just don’t edit comments or cut to another commentator when someone says “I am a devoted follower of Jesus Christ and I will endeavor to represent Him and my constituency well if you put me in office…”
Gotta wonder -not being picky, genuine question- Does anybody think Ephesians 5.12 applies anywhere along here? Are we adding to something? or is it just so…. you know … that the topic’s gonna come up.
jus’ thinkin outloud.
post-scribble:
I guess maybe in a world where the only absolute is the absolute absence of absolutes, people feel more brazen about things now: “Pipe down, you gotta tolerate me!”
Doogie and the NSync guy had been hounded by rumors and questions from the media for quite some time. A press conference is how those in Hollyweird do things, I guess.
Athletes like Esera Tuaolo who wrote, Alone in the Trenches: My Life As a Gay Man in the NFL, have been an inspiration to those who struggled with coming out or remain in the closet.
One of my friends from youth group & college recently came out in the past year. We played football together. He was a tight end – I was a tackle/guard. The locker room is not a friendly place for a closeted gay guy. Life tends to be harder for those of us who aren’t straight white males – gay kids are in search of role models too (though not sure if Bass or Doogie fits the bill).
I heard a long time ago that one of the bellweathers of a nation’s collapse is the public acceptance of immorality.
Check.
Also the breakdown of law and order (more correctly, order, which is the enforcement of laws).
Check.
That’s two of the three. Frankly, I’m glad I’ve forgotten the third.
As for me, I want to have to explain as little as possible when I show up at the throne of judgment. And I sure don’t want to have to explain away anything God called an abomination.
I am announcing here on Kevin’s site that I am going into the closet. Thank you very much.
Maybe it’s important because there is still a great amount of anti-gay prejudice for anyone suspected of being homosexual and when people in prominent positions announce they too are homosexual it fights the bigotry.
We Christians can be a pretty oppresive and intolerant bunch when it comes to those we don’t believe meet our standards–even when they don’t claim to be Christians.
For instance, most of the homosexuals I know would be offended that in one of the comments above they were equated with adulterers. While Christians may see those as similar, non-Christians do not see fidelity as related to sexual orientation.
Listen, if a guy wants to putt from the rough, that’s his business, not mine. I just don’t want to know about it. I don’t go around telling everyone that I am a hetero. I don’t go around bragging about my sexuality. And I do have an unblemished record of staunch heterosexuality. Just stop carrying on about it. To quote the great Texas songwriter, Charlie Robison, “Who freakin’ cares?”
Just as you might not care about who is homosexual or who is heterosexual … why do you think I give a crap about whether or not YOU prefer hearing about it? Why do you think I give a crap that YOU consider it a sinful life? You’re just as guilty of parading your christian lifestyle, beliefs and opinions as is anyone who decides to announce their homosexuality to the world. Grow up and take a closer look at your own actions and behavior before you start complaining about the same in others.
David,
Calm down. No one is condemning anyone here.
My only point is that sexuality is a personal thing. Some things are personal. Like going to the bathroom, its not something you stand up and parade over. I don’t care who you have sex with, as long as it is not criminal, and as long as everyone is adult and willing. Outside of that, keep it to yourself, and I will do the same.
Is homosexuality a sin? I believe so. But I am a sinner as well. I’ve been guilty of many things that are just as detestable in the eyes of God. You have read into this thread something that is not there. No one is being holier-than-thou, no one is condemning anyone for being gay. The point is that we are all sinners, we are all in need of the grace of God, and that even though we are in a pretty sad state relative to the One who made us, He loves us and extends grace to those who will receive it.
Jason,
Thank you for your interesting comment about no one being holier-than-thou. However, we know that many (too many) believers will use any excuse to condemn gays — such as this preacher who is clearly spreading a message of intolerance:
http://365gay.com/Newscon07/02/020907billboard.htm
It is things like this that get our backs up and cause us to raise our voices.
Brian,
There are always over the top people everywhere.
I love everyone but I don’t condone what the Bible calls sin. I don’t go around flaunting my sexuality. I was @ a Starbucks last year & 2 women were making out on the couch. They were doing it to cause a scene. I would have been disgusted if it had been a man & woman.
I’m tired of the flaunting. What people do in private is none of my biz. Yes, I believe it is a sin & I agree with Jason that I am a sinner. But I’m not having press conferences to let everyone know. I also don’t see how coming out is courageous.
Kevin,
If there is one thing gay people know for sure, it is that the world loves to tell us we are going to hell. Do you think we particularly enjoy it when a straight couple makes out in public? Frankly, I don’t care — it’s like picking up the remote control unit and changing the channel.
And this particular “sin” seems to be the one that most believers want to preach against, while ignoring what is obviously written in the New Testament about so many other “sins”.
As for the flaunting, you might as well get used to it. I don’t see things changing, unless a person picks up that “remote control”. The more people protest, the greater the effect it will have on others to speak up.
Brian,
I don’ hear or see adulterers flaunting their sin. They keep it quiet for good reason. I don’t see books written about coming out of the closet for being a liar.
Sin is sin. I personally try to touch on all of them. I’m pretty open that I struggle with spiritual pride. I work on it everyday thru prayer & Bible Study.
Kevin,
Maybe you missed the interview with Zsa Zsa Gabor’s husband last evening, concerning his affair with Anna Nicole Smith, — or countless others who divorce, re-marry, divorce, re-marry and who proudly announce it to the world. Speaking of which, isn’t in interesting that the divorce rate is particularly high amongst Baptists?
http://www.baptiststandard.com/2000/1_12/pages/divorce.html
two things:
one, i love all people…whether gay or strait. i would try to treat a gay person just as i would a strait person.
two, the bible is very clear that homosexuality is a sin against God. and, those who die in this sin will go to hell forever.
the answer is to be saved…to repent of your sins and turn to Jesus in faith to forgive your sins and make you into a new creation.
if the Lord could save a sinner like men, and change my life, then He can do the same for you.
david
Volfan007,
Thanks, but that is like repenting from being tall or having blue eyes. (At 6′2″, there have been times when I wished I could have been a bit shorter, if only to save the ol’ noggin from a few bumps.) I know, I know … being tall won’t put me in hell, but the other will.
Brian,
I like having you around. I’m real sorry for the hurt that you have received from Christians. We are all not like that. I accept you just as you are- just like Jesus does.
The good news is Jesus takes as we are and makes us new people when we accept Him. (2 Cor. 5:17)
Kevin,
Thanks, but you know the saying: “been there, done that, bought the T-shirts.”
And thanks for the welcome. Your kindness is appreciated.
Kevin Scott,
Your response was picked up in spam. I just now recovered it.
I don’t get your point. What Bigotry?
Bigotry is what African Americans and Hispanics deal with because of their skin color, not their sexual pref.
I can’t see Kevin Scott’s comment.
But are you suggesting that gays don’t endure predjudice and bigotry?
When Hitler gassed the gays it had everything to do with their sexual preference and nothing to do with their color.
One need not be black or brown to be part of a minority group that endures crap on a regular basis.
Read a college newspaper and you’ll read about gays who get heckled and sometimes punched in the mouth (or worse) because they are gay…
Kevin,
There is a LOT of prejudice, bigotry and intolerance against gay people. In some places, gays can be fired from their jobs for being gay (even with the absence of scandal). Promotions can be denied. Housing can be denied. Plus, the physical abuse can be astounding. For example, a friend was beaten badly by men who felt they had the right to bash non-straights. In addition to the mental trauma, my friend suffered the loss of teeth and endured other physical pain and suffering). This is nothing new, and it is all due to bigotry — prejudice because one group of people does not meet the approval of others. Skin colour, race and religion are not the only areas where people face prejudice and harm.
As Big Daddy Weave mentioned, Hitler’s atrocities were also against gays, and not just the Jewish people. Many thousands of gays also went thru the camps and gas chambers.
And when Christians use their pulpit to denounce gays in a derogatory fashion, this only incites more intolerance & bigotry. Is it any wonder why gays stay away from the church so much?
the Lord can deliver gays from thier sins just like He delivered me….saved me…..set me free…..from the sins that i was enslaved to before i got saved. thats the good news. you dont have to live the gay lifestyle. the Lord can forgive you and set you free.
also, when you get saved, then the Lord can help you to fight the temptations to commit the sin of sexual perversion. God can do it. He can do anything. He can bring much healing to your life.
brian, being 6′2″ is not a sin, but having homosexual sex is. being red headed is not a sin….lesbian sex is a sin. and, its a sin because the bible teaches that its a sin.
committing the sin of homosexual sex is just as bad as adultery or fornication. and, to say that you cant help it….that you have to be that way, is just as foolish as a married man saying that he cant help but commit adultery with his secretary….that he was just born that way. that he cant help it.
i dont think God wants to hear that we just couldnt help it.
david
I’m sorry but I can’t accept “bigotry” for a choice. African Americans can’t change their skin color.
I was an adulterer. But God changed my heart. I don’t say, “I cannot help but commit adultery, so I am going to indulge in it all the time.” When a pastor would preach against the sin of adultery, I wanted to crawl under the pew. It made me uncomfortable, because it was wrong. I knew it was wrong. I could have marched in the streets in support of adultery, but that didn’t change the fact that it was a sinful choice that I made on my own.
Brian, you are right when you say that people, preachers too, but all people, pick and choose the sins they want to dog people for, and they usually choose the ones they DON’T struggle with. Pretty convenient. I feel bad for you that you have been the target of that kind of misapplication of Scripture.
I have a question for you, Brian. There has only been one time that I wanted to beat up a gay man. I was playing a show in a club once a few years back. Just me and my guitar, it was after midnight, and I was getting ready to wrap up my set. In the crowd, there was a guy that kept learing at me, and I knew what it was about. He approached me after my set, and made a suggestion that I considered lewd. I explained to him that I was not so inclined, that I appreciated him hanging out and listening to my music, and that I was going to go home to my wife. But he persisted. He was downright rude to me, and would not let well-enough alone. I was ready to clean his clock, but I took my guitar and went home.
I asked myself if that would have been considered a hate crime. I would likely have been prosecuted for that, but then it occurred to me that if I had been in the same place with my wife, and some guy was hitting on her, I’d have felt the same way.
Is it possible that some of the people we hear about that are getting beat up are like the person I encountered that night?
I am genuinely curious, and look forward to your insight. Thanks.
Here in Oklahoma two women were beat up in Ada. One had “lesbian’ carved on her forearms and left semi conscious. The other one had “helbound” i believe it was carved on her chest and tied to a tree.
I know a lesbian that told me they have to watch out for redneck guys who cruise their bars to “teach them how to want a real man” by raping them.
I think these horrible things that happen cause some famous gays to speak up.
I know conservatives say it is a choice, but I can’t understand for the life of me why anyone would choose to be gay. I mean why?
MIT.
I think there is more than just choice. The choice is to act on it. The Bible calls the act of homosexual sex a sin. Just as is adultery & fornication.
Brian, that’s sad about your friend. Regarding Hitler, there’s a book titled “The Pink Swastika” which details the number of homsexuals in the top echelons of the Nazi Party- fascinating stuff. The official line was that Jews, gays,communists, “psychics” etc were to be persecuted, but the reality was somehat different. It all depended ( as it always does) on connections.
Francoise,
Good point. My dad was telling me about that book recently.
The Bible labels innumerable things as sins. Picking up firewood on the Sabbath meant that you were to be put to death, for Pete’s sake! Do any of you Baptists believe that this is a sin? If not, why not? The Bible forbids it- end of story, but I don’t see any of you preaching against it, or persecuting those who do it.
As for sexuality- homosexuality is found in animal species as well as humans, as a biological brake against population explosion.
I am hetero- I had absolutely no control over that. It first hit me at the tender age of 7, when I developed a massive crush on a boy in my class. It’s all to do with your brain wiring and individual psychology. My Dad was tall, very intelligent and had Chinese-black hair. Is it any wonder that height, dark hair and intelligence has been crucial factors in the sort of men to whom I gravitated? I have never had the faintest interest in my own sex- it’s all men, men, men. I didn’t ask to be this way- it’s how Nature has fashioned me, and I would hate to be labelled evil and persecuted for something that was not of my choosing at all. It was, rather, a compulsion. This doesn’t imply that I act on my impulses ( after all, I am married) but I expect to the end of my days to find these particular males attractive.So what? Brian is no different form me in this regard. What he finds attractive is not something he has control over.
we are nt christians…..not ot saints. we do not live by the ot laws given to the nation of israel. we live by the commands of the nt. thus, picking up firewood is not something we live by.
homosexuality on the other hand is dealt with in the ot and the nt. its called sin against God….as is fornication and adultery. so, any sexual activity outside the marriage boundaries, and marriage between a man and a woman, is sin against God.
just because some rednecks beat up gays and rape lesbians doesnt change the fact that its sin…..its wrong. the rednecks are wrong too…in the way they are dealing with it.
francois, we are all sinners who sin in all kinds of ways. our sins just oooze out of us in different ways. some are drunks…others are drug addicts and others are homosexuals….while still others are having sex with every woman they can. but, the bible teaches that we are all born sinners with a sin nature. and, we are all tempted to sin in all kinds of ways. homosexuals are tempted to sin in that way due to a number of reasons that arent really that important. the important thing is that it is sin, and God can forgive thier sin when they are willing to repent. God can change them….deliver them…..make them new.
david
Thanks to everyone for your comments. I was out for dinner, so I am just now getting a chance to respond.
For Francoise: Thanks. Your writing, as usual, is excellent. Yes, it is sad about my friend. In the same community, another gay man was bludgeoned by cowards and then left to die — simply because he was minding his own business. Oh yeah, and the fact that he was gay, which is right up there with racism. Need I tell you about the African-American man who was tied to the back of a truck and then dragged down the road to meet his death, and that wasn’t all that long ago, either. I can research it and provide the proof, if you desire. I see no difference in the reason for the hatred for the two crimes.
Bigotry is bigotry — plain and simple. There is no excusing it, regardless of what reason people feed they have. But yet we have religious leaders such as Jerry Falwell (isn’t he a pillar in the Baptist community?), Pat Robertson, John Hagee, Jimmy Swaggart (who supposedly believes that it is OK to kill gay people and then lie to God), who make statements about gays that do nothing more than incite more intolerance. Again, I can provide ample quotes from these men of God. Where is the Christian love? Whatever happened to “love thy neighbour as thyself”? Is this how Jesus lived his life? Is this the Christian norm — to hate people just because they don’t meet up with an approval rating?
Now, for Monk-in-Training: You are right. Why would anybody choose to be gay, to go through this nonsense of persecution and hatred? It’s because it is not a matter of choice. It is the way we are. I could go through all the ex-gay ministry stuff if I wanted to, but I might as well try to re-grow my 1970 long, thick hair. It ain’t gonna work!
And for Jason: the situation that you described in the club is pretty crummy, I must admit. Hey, I have had the same thing happen to me. I hate it when I am out for a drink (yes, I do that, once in a blue moon), and somebody else has had a few drinks and gets the courage to come up and try something. Usually it is the placement of a hand where I don’t want it, or the spilling of their drink, and generally I only have to give a look and that ends it right there. Violence is not the answer, and I would never hit anybody. Raising my voice is a different matter. I rarely do it, but when I do, you will hear me “LOUD and clear”, as the saying goes.
And for Volfan007 (David): I understand what you are saying, very clearly. Perhaps I can refer you to my message, No. 23, in this thread.
Thanks to all of you for your comments, and I hope you are all having a good weekend.
Brian,
You have read here long enough to know those men don’t speak for me.
I don’t hate anyone esp. you. But I do believe the Bible is 100% God’s Word so if a passage says an action is a sin, then that is what I believe. Adultery, lying, cheating, pride and homesexual sexual acts are sin. They all are.
Hi Kevin,
I know. But those men do speak on behalf of God, or so they claim, and they are all highly respected preachers with a great number of followers who subscribe to their statements.
And I know you don’t hate me — I have never felt that about you. But here is where we will have to disagree: I am what and who I am, and no amount of Holy Ghost prayer meetings can change that. “Been there, done that, bought the T-shirts.” If that means the descent to a very unpleasant place is the inevitable reality, then I guess I will have to face the consequences.
Bigotry probably isn’t the right word being used, so you could say that it doesn’t apply.
But to a homosexual it does apply for many of them feel that being gay is the same as skin color and gender. They don’t feel that God has given them control over it.
Choice or not a choice.
Sin or not a sin.
We live in a pluralistic society. The rights of all should be and usually are protected. This most definitely includes minority groups that experience hate because of who they are (or who’ve they’ve chosen to be, whatever).
Bigotry is just that – bigotry.
If the predjudice, hate, and bias that many homosexuals experience is not bigotry – then what the heck is it?
Many of you may think that gays choose to be attracted to members of the same-sex. But they don’t choose to suffer verbal and physical abuse from homophobic heterosexuals. I know I’ve been guilty in years past of using such demeaning speech.
Janna:
Bigotry IS the right word — when people are prejudiced and decide that they will not hire a person because he or she might be gay, or that a person can be fired for the same reason (even if their work is, otherwise, outstanding). Or, harassing a tenant and threatening eviction, hate crimes, etc. Those things are not based upon any level of love and acceptance, and when people do these things out of hatred, there is prejudice involved. One of my African-American friends in Houston said it all: “try being black AND gay for double effect!”
This whole post had nothing to do with bigotry. I don’t think anyone should be fired for anything but poor job performance, period.
But I’m tired of people rubbing in my face their choice of sexual behavior.
I have been against “HATE” against anyone. Why do you think I went and interviewed Shirley Phelps-Roper?
Brian,
I don’t think you have met the real Jesus. You experienced religion. I’m sorry for that.
What really sends us to hell, Volfan?
Brian, the problem isn’t any list of things you do or don’t do. And, yes, the church is filled with people who believe it is and who trumpet that it is as loudly as they can. I suppose it will be so until the end of time. The issue is whether you will listen as the Holy Spirit prods you to follow Jesus. So many in the church today attack homosexuality like it is the only sin, or at least the only one that sends someone to hell… at least by their actions and words that is how it appears. Meanwhile they go on in pride, lust, secret sins, lying, gossiping, slandering, hating, eating, envying, coveting, worshiping the god of Money, bigotry, failing to follow their call, idolatry of self, idolatry of spouses, idolatry of their children, you name it.
A life that follows Jesus will repent of their life of following their own whims and desires. It will still fail and slip and slide and sin, but Jesus will be right there ready to carry the burdens as we learn to let Him and as we surrender our lives to Him, trusting Him with all our hearts and not leaning on our own understanding.
As far as whether it is a matter of choice or not, I would say that those who are tempted to have homosexual sex face very real temptations that seem impossible to escape. They desire sex with someone of their own gender more than they could ever desire it with someone of the opposite gender. I have no idea how things got to that point, whether from conception or not. I would guess that like so many things in life it is a mixture of a wide variety of factors including wiring at conception and environment.
I know I have been in such places of temptation that seemed beyond my ability to avoid it as a sexual individual. I have both given in and I have turned from them. And, when one who lives in the face of such of a temptation finds the Way of escape, he can praise God and God alone, because it isn’t through his or her own will power that he chose a better path, a path of selfless love.
Praise God that He provides the solution for sin and a way of escape from temptation, which isn’t sin.
Kevin,
Perhaps the thread had nothing to do with bigotry, but it is all a part of why gay people stand up for themselves (and come out), just as black people stood up to let others know that they matter. In the very early 1980s, Canada experienced the second-largest mass arrest in our history, when the police raided gay bathhouses, arresting hundreds of men. All of the charges were dropped. Tens of thousands took to the streets to let people know that we are here and we will not take abuse from bigots. Since then, the Pride marches and such have grown in very large numbers, and now we have uniformed police officers and the Mayor and entire city council marching in the parade. Why am I mentioning this? Because bigotry and abuse was the reason behind people raising their voices to be counted.
As for your comment about my not experiencing Jesus, well, I can tell you, that it was as real as any of the others who went to the same church. We all went to service whenever the church doors were open, prayer meetings, revival services, baptism in fire & water and I can’t remember what all.
For Bryan R.: Thanks; yes, I understand what you are saying. “Been there, done that, bought the T-shirts”.
Now, then, shouldn’t we all try to get some sleep? Don’t some of you have to face crowds in the morning? LOL
Brian,
What you did was just just religion. I’m talking about having a real relationship with Jesus. It’s not about being at church everytime the church doors open.
It is about giving your life over to Him. I will continue to pray for you.
Kevin: “been there, done that ….”
David (No 35) as I pointed out, the Bible has some pretty harsh things to say about many, many things which nobody in their right mind would today, in our society, consider to be evil.
Interestingly, the Bible, so condemning of long hair on men, homosexuality, working on the sabbath, etc etc, fully supports the evil of slavery, and St Paul explictly states that the institution is that of God and His fans – disgusting notion! See the Bible for what it is- a cobbling together from older sources of many Bronze Age beliefs which suited the nature of the societies of those times. What may be desirable in one time and culture, may be utterly abhorrent to another. Most warrior societies detested homosexuals, because they were not breeding soldiers for the next generation. Yet the natives of Papua New Guinea believe that a man is not a real man unless he’s had sexual relations with other men for many years. Only after that is he considered to be fit for marriage and fatherhood. It all depends on the culture into which you are born.
Anyone who believes that being homosexual is simply a “choice” one makes is a raving idiot. I had no “choice” in being gay just as you had no “choice” in being straight. Anyone who believes that I would consciously choose to be someone that is hated and loathed by Christians, someone that society considers to be less worthy than my straight brothers and sisters, someone who will never know equal rights in my country that supposedly values equality for all – anyone who thinks I would choose this life is just simply in denial. Is it so hard to believe that, just perhaps, God made me this way? Who are any of you to suggest that God makes mistakes? What would I be saying about God if I denied to be the person that he made me to be? By living a lie, by denying who I am and who God made me to be, what kind of Christian would I be?
When I go to bed each night, I say a prayer to Jesus to please forgive those who do terrible things in his name. Please forgive those who preach hate and intolerance for your homosexual children while quoting your word. Please forgive those who believe that some of your children are undeserving of your grace and of everlasting life in heaven. Please forgive those that openly persecute some of your children – forgive them, for they know not what they do.
A raving idiot?
Tell us what you really think David!
Don’t give up hope though.
Full equality and inclusion for all of God’s children will come sooner rather than later…
BDW,
Why did God destroy Sodom & Gomarah? How do yo explain Romans 1?
Y’all were up late!
Since words have real definitions and common definitions, I suggested maybe using another word for bigotry. I agree that it is what many homosexuals experience because of who they fell they are.
Brian and David and any other homosexuals doing this blog:
Do you think that everyone who says that homosexuality is a sin is a bigot? Are you able to allow someone to love you and believe homosexuality is wrong? How do you handle the mixture of the two?
I know that people love me despite knowing that being fat is a sin. I know that people love me even though I can lie. I know that people love me despite being a strong independent baptist woman. All of the parts of my sinful nature are hard to change, some are very much apart of me. Your desire to be loved by and love the same gender is part of you that is hard to change also. I believe most people on this blog want you to feel loved first by Jesus and then by us. The focus is on your personhood not your sexuality.
Kevin, I think that is sort of your point of this thread. You don’t see the need for all these coming out books because it seems to be more about publicity? You believe in rights, support, and equality for gays; however, you don’t need to see a parade to give them these. Heterosexuals would be trashed if they were to have a heterosexual pride parade. Aren’t they being courageous also?
I’m thankful when my homosexual friends have felt comfortable to tell me who they are attracted to romantically. Some have told me the first hour of meeting, some a few years later. They didn’t tell me with a big fanfair. If it is truly who you are then a production isn’t needed.
I think a lot of this turmoil is coming from the changing understanding of what it means to be a homosexual. In past times the Church actually persecuted people who were left handed, and if you weren’t careful you would end up being burned as a witch (that is if you did not have good connections in the community). Now my own daughter is left handed. It makes me shudder when I think of what could have been done to her if she had been born in another time.
People who offered pain relief to women in childbirth were attacked as upsetting the “Biblical” understanding of women bearing the curse. God must have been so sad how we have enslaved and tormented so many of His children over the centuries.
I daresay lots of heterosexuals practice birth control on this blog. I know my wife and I did. No Church in the history of the world permitted that before 1930 (yes, we Episcopals started it). It was immediately met with screams of outrage and our own Bishop Gore (yes we permit alternative opinions in our Church) lead the fight to stop this “birth control movement” that threatened the “whole religious and moral tradition of Christianity.” You can read one of Bp. Gore’s seminal papers on the subject here: http://anglicanhistory.org/gore/birthcontrol.html
Keven, you asked
“Why did God destroy Sodom & Gomarah? How do yo explain Romans 1?”
Here is my answer, I simply think that sex is not the issue (or at most a side issue), pure worship of God is.
Isaiah 1:10-17 describes the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah. This passage makes no mention of homosexuality when it lists the grievances against the rulers of Sodom and the people of Gomorrah.
Jer 23:14 compares Jerusalem to Sodom & Gomorarh and says “But in the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen a more shocking thing: they commit adultery and walk in lies; they strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from wickedness; all of them have become like Sodom to me, and its inhabitants like Gomorrah.”
No mention of homosexual activity.
Ezekiel 16:49 Actually defines the sin of Sodom. “This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and
prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it.”
The “abominable things” are translated from the Hebrew word Tow`ebah and it is defined as “a disgusting thing, abomination, abominable” and it’s mainly used as a word describing ritual impurity such as unclean food, idolatry, and mixed marriages. It is also used in the ethical sense of wickedness.
So here it looks like not taking care of the poor and needy and worshiping idols were the main focus of the sin of Sodom. Homosexual activity isn’t specifically mentioned here either, and one would think it would be clearly defined in a passage that starts off with “This is the guilt …”
What is clear is that the people of the regions of Sodom and Gomorrah worshiped fertility gods and goddesses whose idolatrous rites centered on sexuality as some sort of magical way of obtaining fertile crops and wombs.
Now about Romans 1:27, not long before Paul arrived in Rome, the Emperor Claudius had made it legal for Roman citizens to become priests of the goddess Cybele. Her worship had been brought to Rome among all the other crazy religions in those days, and was particularly shocking to the people. Self-emasculated priests known as galli served the goddess. Romans were shocked and horrified by this bizarre voluntary castration and the turning of men into women to serve this so called goddess. With that background, Romans 1 becomes far more (to me) about the WHAT they
are doing (worship of idols) than HOW they are doing it (bizarre sexual rites).
I realize this is a different take on these matters than most here are used to, but I think it is just as valid, reasonable, and just as Scripturally based as any other. The core sin here is idolatry, not the methods used to perform it.
For Janna:
Thanks for your comments. I hope I am not mis-reading you or being intrusive, but do you really believe that being fat is a sin? So many people are over-weight and do nothing about it, but is it really a sin? I know the body is supposed to the temple of God, but I think it’s a stretch to say to that being over-weight is a sin (assuming that sin keeps a person from heaven.)
Anyway, about your question to me: most people who tell us that we are sinners love to do it simply because they hate gay people. They can say that they hate the sin but love the sinner, but really, the very fine line is blurred (if it exists at all.) Couple that with suspicion, gossip and rumours that seem to make their way back to us, and we rarely need much more to prove again that people say these things simply to vent their anger. Do you think I believe Shirley Phelps-Roper when she says that she loves gays more than anybody else? I have nothing against Shirley. I certainly do not hate her. Why would I want to do that? She is as entitled to her opinion as anybody else, and she is not going to rack up points by claiming that yet another person has reviled her for His name’s sake. Or again, Jerry Falwell, who represents so many Bible believers and who is so influential and respected. To find a Christian who TRULY loves us (without any hidden agenda or artifice) is very rare, because of the discomfort level.
And, frankly, I am not the type to parade my personal business in someone else’s face. I do respect people’s privacy; I can often be a person of few words. I have a “live and let live” attitude, and I don’t wish to offend or hurt anybody, but I expect the same in return and I will not tolerate abuse. As Miss Aretha sings, “R-E-S-P-E-C-T; find out what it means to me”.
Monk-in-Training: your comment about being left-handed reminds me of a colleague who was left-handed as a very young child, but his parents thought this was wrong. They taught the boy to always use his right hand (with insistance each and every time he resorted to the left hand.) I did not know this until I was going over some of his paperwork (hand-written), and it was the biggest mess in the world. I had to ask for some clarification and he apologized and told me about it. How sad to think that people insist that a person must change what is natural to the individual.
Kevin: You asked about Sodom & Gomorrah. We had this discussion in this thread, No. 36 (from M-I-T), regarding Ezekiel, and I see that it has been addressed within this topic, too:
http://kevinbussey.wordpress.com/2007/01/12/cant-we-just-all-get-along/#comments
Even if the Bible did not mention these things in Leviticus or Romans, my belief is that people would find some abstract reference to justify their point — because they despise homosexuality (and the people to whom this pertains).
Brian, I hear you, but you keep saying been there done that… I guess the thing I was trying to say is that it isn’t a finished work. Done says you tried something; it didn’t work for you; you moved on. The thing is, when we try, of course it doesn’t work for us, we might as well move on. Done shows that what you’ve done is finite, not eternal. If you believe in eternity at all, or in an infinite Being, then find that, and it will never be a “done.”
I believe that until we give away our lives to the only One who can do something, we will keep trying the next best thing and keep finding ourselves in that category of having been there, done that, and getting the T-shirt. The good news is that lack of satisfaction in that is good evidence of the More we are seeking.
Thanks for your concern, Bryan.
For KB, Monk in Training and Janna–
Janna, I really feel for you if you believe that being fat is a sin. Many years ago, a self-righteous Christian of the Pentecostal kind would, every time she saw me, point to my waistline and louldy accuse me of being a glutton. I then weighed 65 kg ( don’t know what it is in lbs, but it’s not huge). As it happened, I wasn’t a glutton
( if that term means an over-eater) but I did have a slight tummy bulge, made noticeable because in those days, I was in uniform and had to wear a belt around my waist. This girl was so rude, so horrible, so judgemental, so utterly uncaring of my feelings that I was thankful not to be in her congregation.I have long suspected that those who are only too happy to point out the sins of others are probably hiding something in their own life…turns out that this girl was a lesbian by nature ( don’t know if she was practising) but there you have the core of her overt disdain for me. She secretly hated herself
( because her Bible told her that she was an abomination) and so she had to discharge those feeling of unworthiness onto me, and, no doubt, onto others as well. Needless to say, it only served to make me more resistant to religion!
Monk in Training- a thoughtful and rational contribution- well done! I knew a girl who went to Catholic school and was told that her left-handedness meant that she was in league with Satan ( at the age of 6 years!!!) and they tied her left hand behind her back to force her to use her right hand. Result- she developed a terrible stammer, which increased her alienation from other children. And people wonder why I worship no God…..
Kevin, of course adulterers don’t flaunt their deeds! Half of the “fun” of adultery is that they’re doing something which society allegedly frowns upon. The thrill of the forbidden is addictive to some people.Not only that, but if found out, they may end up in the divorce court, and have to shell out hefty legal fees. Most adulterers have no intenton of divorcing, for the benefits of marriage are many. The lure of forbidden fruit and an excess of sexual desire is a potent combination, but the comforts of home are also sweet.
As a matter of fact, in my long and eventful life, I have never known adultery to bring happiness or contentment to anyone ( we will have to wait and see in the case of our future King and Camilla!) But usually, once the initial passion has burned itself out, both parties realise that they’re in bed with a liar and cheat. If they’re silly enough to marry, this knowledge darkens their happiness and breeds suspicion and hatred.How can either trust the other, when they both know that they are cheats? It just wouldn’t be worth it, but you can’t tell that to someone whose mind is addled with desire.
Francoise,
I would like to know just one totally monogamous homosexual couple. Most of the research shows that homosexual couples have multiple partners throughout their lives.
Also, what about the costs to society for all of the diseases that occur among homosexuals.? Those are facts.
Francoise, why does the sin of humanity drive you to the conclusion that there is no God? That seems to be letting the cart drive the horse?
Kevin,
I know of several monogamous couples who are very happy, after many years of being together.
And why is this an issue, considering the way heterosexuals jump around so much? It’s very evident amongst non-believers, but the divorce rate is also quite high amongst Baptists. One would think that born-again believers (including clergy) would have had a stricter sense of commitment and respect for their partner and the supposed sin of adultery.
http://www.baptiststandard.com/2000/1_12/pages/divorce.html
Brian,
Are you saying the were virgins & have been faithful to each other their entire life? The research doesn’t prove that.
I was a virgin when I got married & have been faithful my entire life. Sure there are those who mess up. God forgives everyone who asks.
The facts are homosexuals live shorter lives & get more diseases than heterosexuals. It is not God’s design. I’m sorry to say that but it is true.
Well, you are entitled to your opinion, although you have ignored the business about adultery and divorce amongst Christians.
As for whether or not my friends were virgins, how would I know that? I don’t go around asking what they do or what “stage” they are at. It is none of my business whatsoever, just as it none of my business about the private lives of my straight friends. I have NO interest in the intimate privacy of others.
And if gays are so problematic, as Shirley said to you, why would you want us in your church? We would never be trusted.
Maybe I should have stayed as more of a reader of this one.
Yes, being fat is a sin. No it will not keep from from entering Heaven, but it effects my relationship with Christ. Homosexuality is the same in that it does not keep you from Heaven, but it doesn’t mix with a real relationship with Jesus. Any time I choose to shed a tear with an extra helping instead of letting Jesus know my pain, I’ve hurt him and I’m not honoring the body he gave me. I don’t mean it to sound that simplistic. Throughout this topic and somewhat the purpose of kevin’s blog is that Christians have to stop being so self righteous and see their own sin, also. God does seem to punish sins differently, but that isn’t the role of Christians. We are just to love one another. Some people do screw that up, but real followers of Christ are out there. With BrYan, I hope that you choose to try again. Don’t try the same thing…try where there is real loving people. There are people who frequent Kevin’s blog who have connections in various areas of the country…they might could have you find a real family of God. Personally, it saddens me more that you haven’t gotten to know a real relationship with Jesus than to know that you prefer having relationships with men.
My agenda isn’t really hidden…just not that public. I desire to know how to reach my half-sister…to continue to let her know that she is loved. To know better things to pray for her so that if/when she faces the judgements of other, she can still know that God is love. Kevin, I don’t know if she’d apply to your question on monogamous couples, but I’ll let you have her history. She married a man when I was a child. I have no idea about sex before marriage then. They divorced after eight years of marriage. Two years later she started dating this woman. They had a “ceremony” after a year a dating. They had not had sex with each other till they had that ceremony. They have not been together for 12yrs. I only had the courage to have the knowledge because I’ve heard those same stats. Because I love my half-sister, I wanted to know if this was true for her.
Illness in a hospital is problematic. Sometimes a cure is easy to find…sometimes it takes a process…sometimes it needs to be managed to live with. Some of us want homosexuals in our churches because we know the healer and the one of true love. (please don’t miss read this to think that homosexuality is a disease) It isn’t problematic for those who are following Christ’s lead.
Brian,
I can’t answer for those who got a divorce. Some people it is not their choice. One of my family members wife just up & left him. She was a Baptist preacher’s daughter too.
Brian,
Janna is right. My purpose is to talk about ALL sin that we struggle with.
I would want you in my church. But I will not water down the Bible just to avoid hurting people’s feelings.
I know you don’t think so but I really care about you. I consider you a friend. Part of being a good friend is confronting. My good friends point out sin in my life & I am grateful. I may not like it @ 1st but eventually I realize they pointed out my failings because they love me.
Hi Janna,
Sorry to read of your assessment of being over-weight and the stress that it causes you. I know that this is a concern for many, many people and that it can create unhappiness. A treat here and there can soon add a few pounds on, and it’s made even worse every time we turn on the TV and chance upon an episode of Friends where the women are all of size 4 (collectively, LOL). Sometimes, losing even 10 pounds can seem like a battle. I think a good way to approach it is to set a goal of 5 pounds at a time, instead of looking at a larger number and dreading the long haul. But as far as it being a sin that causes you grief, are you sure you aren’t being just a bit too hard on yourself?
And you are saying that homosexuality will not keep a person from heaven. Are you absolutely sure about that? That seems to contradict 1 Corinthians 6:9.
Hi Kevin,
I DO believe you when you say you are sincere. What would you have to profit by making public statements that you would later plan on retracting? And I thank you for being concerned. But, things are as they are.
One of my Christian friends also went thru an embarrassing divorce. Her ex-husband is a very successful person in the public eye and while I don’t know the details (nor do I want to know them), they are now divorced and he is now re-married, smiling ear-to-ear. What can a person do? Just be there for those who need some comfort & support, I suppose. I don’t live in the shoes of either party, but I know how hurtful this must have been.
Kevin.
I really AM going to have to post about the Clintons or homosexuals if I am going to get pages of comments like you get! wow.
I would like a citation of your comment about homosexuals living shorter lives and not being monogamous. In fact I have met two couples here locally. One via a prison ministry that I was involved with (Methodists) the other a food bank in town. One has been together for 25 years, the other 17. They told me (yes, I was tasteless enough to ask) that they had been monogamous their whole time together. They both own homes are productive members of their Churches. I am sure if I ran across two couples there are more out there.
I have heard conservatives use those statistics, but never have heard where they come from. Chapter and verse ya know!
Kevin, I don’t want to get involved in this discussion, but just fyi, the statistics on whether homosexuals get more diseases and live shorter lives are very questionable. They tend to be quoted over and over by conservatives who only reference each other (rather than the larger scientific community as a whole).
We have a saying in academics that statistics are like prisoners: they’ll say anything if you torture them long enough.
Kevin,
If you begin a dialogue with gays in your own community, I’m sure you’ll find that many-many-many are both committed and monogamous.
What facts or statistics do you speak of? Many of those “stats” that groups rely on tend not to be reputable. Exgay literature often argues that homosexuality takes 20 years off an individual’s life. Those arguments have been debunked over and over for years.
I tend to rely on findings that have been peer reviewed not stats originating from organizations that push a certain social agenda.
My previous comment about equality/inclusion had nothing to do with the Church. I meant equality under the law and in the workplace. Sodom and Romans should have absolutely nothing to do with whether gays receive those protections and privileges afforded to heterosexuals.
One need not affirm homosexuality theologically in order to support full gay rights….
BDW,
You are naive to think that. I could tell you horror stories to th contrary but out of respect of Brian I won’t go there.
As for the stats, they also show the homosexuals make more money. So is that misleading too?
Kevin,
I am a big guy. Spill the beans! I won’t be shocked.
Those stats seem slanted — particularly that one about money. LOL
Hi Kevin – you must be aware that venereal diseases are also spread by “straights”. As a matter of fact, I do know of a monogamous gay couple- women – who’ve been together for 35 years. Lesbians of that type are in extremely low risk categories for the transmission of std’s, wouldn’t you agree?
Bryan Riley, it took a lot of reflection before I forsook gods- all gods- mainly because ALL religion is demonstrably man-invented, that there is simply no PROOF that the claims of ANY religion are true, and also because the behaviour of so many of “God’s” followers led me to conclude that the “sacred” books of these believers explicitly gave them permission to behave horribly towards their fellow humans. If I wished to do many atrocious things, I could easily find justification for them in that Book of Horrors commonly known as the Holy Bible. Religion, as you must surely know by now, has been the direct cause of appalling misery, suffering and ignorance. Witness the Muslim world if you want an example- or look at the Indian caste system, which used religion to impose atrocious suffering on the Harijans, now known as Dalits.
If there is a God, well bully for him/her/it. I simply refuse to worship anything which encourages ignorance and cruelty.
Francoise, does God encourage ignorance and cruelty or humans simply choose it?
Yes, religion is man-invented. I agree. And, thus, the appalling misery, suffering and misery you say is directly caused by religion really is just directly caused again by man.
In my opinion that all bodes well for a g[G]od. It seems you are indicting man, not God. What do you think?
What would faith be if it were provable?
Bryan, your first question assumes that
1) I am a theist and 2) that I am sufficiently arrogant and/or delusional to know what this supernatural entity thinks and does. Neither is applicable.
I am not indicting human beings per se, but those who use their “god” to ill-treat other humans. The Bible and Koran give loads of encouragement to their respective believers to do just that. I refuse to be part of any of it.
I’m glad that you at least realise that religion is a human invention.
Francoise, I wasn’t assuming you were a theist. I was making the point that clearly the evil in the world cannot be from God, particularly when you don’t believe in God.
I also did not find you to be arrogant at all. But, if there be a God, one that has the power to create all that exists, I would believe that God would also have the ability to reveal God’s self to human beings in spite of the limitations of their mind, which would require any ability on our part to know what God thinks or does other than the humility to listen.
I suppose I could rephrase the question: do humans need the bible or koran to treat others poorly? Or have they shown the ability to do that separate and apart from any religion?
Because I realize that religion is a human invention is why I look for something that isn’t.
There should be a “not” in that last sentence of my second paragraph. “…which would not require any ability (or delusion) on our part….”
Brian, thank you for your honesty. I pray I would give you the same respect to be honest as well. It’s sad, but we humans don’t open our hearts well at all. Perhaps we are scared of what lay inside.
Bryan, if you already knew that I believe in no God, what was the point of asking me if “God” encourages ignorance and cruelty??? If you believe the Bible to be inerrant, then you must know that Isaiah has “God” boasting that He is the author of good AND EVIL. I rest my case.
One thing of which all too many Christians seem to be woefully unaware is that atheists such as myself HAVE read the Bible, maybe more than most believers have. The God of the Old Testament is plainly the invention of cruel and savage people projecting their cruel and savages inclinations onto their disgusting deity. Who in their right minds would want to worship such a blood-thirsty, plainly mad monster?
Any religion which has writings that enable its believers to behave horribly is not somewthing which I could ever, ever believe in. The Bible does allow atrocities committed by its adherents, you know it does. I, like Thomas Paine, detest any creed which is cruel.
No, of course we don’t need religions to treat one another badly, but to use the supernatural and the invisible and unprovable as an excuse is the height of stupidity.
Thanks, Bryan, for your kind expression.
Francoise, I do not know all things, so please direct me to where the scripture teaches that God authors evil. I make no assumptions that I know more or less than you do of the scripture.
Also, do you believe that it is possible that the things you or I may see today as evil may have a purpose beyond our imagination?
Would you appreciate it is someone took something you did and called it the height of stupidity?
I’d call myself scholarly not naieve for choosing to relying on peer reviewed studies. In the academic world, we prefer science not psuedo-science.
Gay or straight, we all have heard horror stories.
Sure thing,Bryan. Isaiah 45:7.
If I acted in a vicious way towards another human being, claiming the authority of, say, Darwin, or Ingersoll, or Paine, then yes, I would be guilty of great stupidity.
Here’s the first nine verses of Isa. 45. I’m not sure I read it exactly as you first said it:
“This is what the LORD says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of
to subdue nations before him
and to strip kings of their armor,
to open doors before him
so that gates will not be shut:
2 I will go before you
and will level the mountains [a] ;
I will break down gates of bronze
and cut through bars of iron.
3 I will give you the treasures of darkness,
riches stored in secret places,
so that you may know that I am the LORD,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name.
4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
though you do not acknowledge me.
5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,
6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.
8 “You heavens above, rain down righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness grow with it;
I, the LORD, have created it.
9 “Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
‘What are you making?’
Does your work say,
‘He has no hands’?
I definitely see it pointing to God as the author/creator of all things. And I also believe the bible teaaches that God is in control. I supposes that you then ask again, if He is “in control” then isn’t He responsible for all terrible things? And, I would say that nothing happens that He does not allow to happen, but what we see as terrible may not be so. Just as 9/11 here in the States seemed tragic, our country saw much good come from it. Just as my life as a child had much tragic in it, the tragedies are what made me learn where strength really is and what it means.
Have there been people claim that it is good to kill others or hate others who were less evolved than some? I believe there have. Putting that aside, though, my question was whether you would like to be told that by another.
With the mention of Darwin and Ingersoll…
Dare I ask if any of you celebrated Evolution Sunday today?
“And you are saying that homosexuality will not keep a person from heaven. Are you absolutely sure about that? That seems to contradict 1 Corinthians 6:9.”
If someone has been truly repentant and is working to follow Christ, then I believe God see the heart. If someone is acting out their homosexuality with no regard for God, then are they truly a follower? The Holy Spirit (yep a baptist using this part of the trinity) does convict of sin in the daily life of a believer. The conviction of the Holy Spirit is the guide to not go down the wrong path. Yes, it can seem to contradict scripture, but that is cause of the terrible ways Christians have shown about salvation truly being for all.
Bryan,if I behaved stupidly then I should have the humility to accept being told that my actions had been stupid. To my way of thinking, discriminating against, or hating or killing another human being because of what someone wrote or thought 3000 years ago is just insane.
I’m with Janna. There is only one thing that will keep a person out of heaven. Rejecting God.
I agree with Kevin and Janna, God will accept anyone who asks, but it is up to the individual to accept Christ.
I do believe that God places people in our lives so that we can learn more from them, including the folks who are actively posting on this blog.
A little story even though none of you know me personally….I dated a guy my freshman year in college who was a regular attender of a local Baptist church and who had great Christian parents and a brother a little older than he was. We dated for over a year and he later “came out of the closet”, but didn’t announce it loudly or write a book about it. Looking back, I cared a lot about him, which made me do a lot of soul searching, praying, and studying of scripture because I did not want to be in Heaven without my friend and feared that he might not know Christ. God showed me that I could not turn my back on him because of his choice, but I certainly still to this day let him know that I do not agree with his lifestyle. I’m glad God showed me that because my friends parent’s did the opposite of acceptance. They treated him like he was diseased, which I can understand from their standpoint because he wasn’t what they wanted him to be and they were disappointed, but it doesn’t make it right. What I never understood was that his brother slept with numerous girls in college and his parent’s never addressed that issue with him, which I believe is sin as well.
All in all, God grew me through this situation. It is difficult to always love others as Christ loves us. I’m not good at it, but I’m trying to get better every day.
Thank you for your willingness to blog about things that are not popular to discuss openly. My thoughts and prayers go out to each of you.
SD
wow, 87 comments! and yet, the bible is still true. homosexuality is still a sin in the eyes of God just as adultery is. the good news is that God can forgive a gay man just as He can forgive an adulterer. and, the Lord can change thier hearts.
btw, i also reject darwinian evolution and believe the bible concerning creation.
david
David, you’ve commented on the last few posts with what seem to be cryptic comments. I can’t tell if they are responsive, random thoughts, edifications or what. they appear to be reactions to something, but there is no context. Can you help out a reader?
With respect to the debate about bigotry against gays (in this thread), here is something about Tim Hardaway and his attitude about Amaechi and all gays. Another example of why people come out, write books, etc. — to expose the hatred of others, for what it is.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/4558274.html
Brian,
I don’t agree with Tim Hardaway. What he said is plain wrong. I really do care about you and other gays.
Kevin,
Thanks. But you are a “rare breed”, if you really mean that. Most of us stay away from churches with a “where do they hide the pitch forks?” suspicion.
But now you can see my point about bigotry in the earlier messages — it is not restricted only to issues of racism. When we are denied employment, promotion, or are hurt physically (or even insulted with epithets & slurs), it is all done because prejudiced people have made up their mind that they hate us and have to control us. And that attitude is very prevalent in churches (mainly evangelical ones … I know of many Anglicans, United Church folk, etc. who are very open to gay people and who have gay clergy — people go where the welcome mat is offered.)
Brian,
Of course I mean it. I’m sorry for your pain. I will try to be more understanding. I don’t understand how this is bigotry, but it sure is hate. Maybe it is just semantics. Sorry.
Thanks. Not to split hairs, but you have this cross-referenced under “Stupid” and “Ridiculous”. What does that say to us about a witness?
Brian,
Fair enough, I changed it for you.
Ungh. All this talk about “sexual choices” is deeply disturbing. I think people who see orientation in terms of choice have not examined their own sexuality, or they would understand that orientation is not a choice. What healthy young man, exposed to something they are predisposed to finding exciting, through sheer force of will, can keep themselves from getting an erection? The idea that you can decide to be or not be excited by something is utterly absurd.
And, really, sex just confuses the issue. You can take gender out of the equation quite easily by examining romantic love. Love is irrational. You don’t choose who you fall in love with, your body chooses for you. I am sure every person here, down to the most pious of pious, has experienced for someone feelings they thought were “inappropriate” and would rather not have, or was in a relationship with someone they knew was not good for them but found it very difficult to leave because despite everything, they continued to love the object of their torment. If you can call that a choice, you might as well call feeling hungry or cold a choice.
Many Christians like to walk a fine line by arguing that, while becoming excited or falling in love is not a choice, acting on those feeling is. I am sure that our host would have NO qualms about someone coming out of the closet by saying, “I am a homosexual. However, homosexual acts are sins, so I have chosen to take a vow of celibacy.” (Forgive me for putting words in your mouth, gracious host, I’d like to hear if this is not true.) Such a person would be setting, to a mindset I do not share, a positive example for other people struggling with forbidden urges. I find this line of thinking unreasonably intolerant, but I can see that it is a question of faith-based values, and like all matters of faith, there can be little argument against it no matter how insane I might personally find it.
I also find the stated view that coming out of the closet cannot be courageous to be disingenuous. The sad fact of the matter is that it is dangerous to be openly gay. Every day, every day, people die in North America for no other reason than that they dared be true to themselves. How can coming out not require courage? I grant that Doogie Howser did not likely endanger his life by coming out, but he certainly closed off a lot of career opportunities. That’s a sacrifice.
Whether or not one feels it was for a good cause, I cannot understand the argument that it doesn’t take guts. Such an argument requires some awfully thick rose tinted glasses. Maybe it takes a little less courage for each successive person, but homosexuals are still long way from social equality. How else are we going to get there if they do not keep publicly coming out?
Or would one argue that God demands these people never obtain social equality? It’s a big world out there, and better arguments than “God says so” are needed unless you just want to literally preach to the choir. Anyway, my feeble grasp of matters biblical tells me this is not so. To sin does not make one less human. Indeed, that is pretty much the whole definition of “being human.” If everyone is a sinner, what hypocrisy for one sinner to malign another and how dare they attempt to hold themselves in higher regard. Are not all sins equal in the eyes of your Lord? For shame!
Even if one thinks these people need to be saved from their wicked ways, does it then make any sense at all to prefer they keep it in private so one can never know the “problem” exists? Isn’t that just sticking your head in the sand? (Something, incidentally, even the ostrich knows better than to do; that is a myth.)
Lastly, there was an analogy raised between coming out of the closet and hosting a Christian-themed blog. I think this analogy is spot-on and not sufficiently addressed. Faith is, by definition, utterly irrational; if a belief is rational, faith is not required. Why should I respect irrational views based in faith, when those displaying such views won’t respect other’s irrational feelings (remember: love is irrational) based in biology? Respect is reciprocal. It’s almost impossible to respect someone who scorns me and those I identify with, at least, if I wish to continue respecting myself.
Apologies if my passion got the better of me.
Here is an upsetting story about a 72-year old man, who was attacked recently, because he was gay. He later died. Now, do people see how this senseless intolerance and bigotry (prejudice) affects us? If people were not intolerant, then this would not happen. It’s made even worse when churches pontificate about the evils of being gay. It incites resentment and causes some to react, as in this situation. Notice the comments that follow after the article.
http://www.lsj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070224/NEWS01/70224001/1001/news
Religion is particularity effective at inciting violence. Please be careful what is said in the name of your Lord.
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660199036,00.html
(There are a couple of mistakes in the above when it describes the methodology, but I could not find the article I first discovered the experiment in.)
I think this goes a long way to demonstrate one of the most powerful uses of religion; to help establish a mentality which allows “Us” to kill “Them” without minding very much about it. One just has to open any newspaper to see that homosexuals are as much “Us” as “Them” for almost any definition you care to name, but a lot of people still like to pretend otherwise. That’s why I think its so important for religions to be inclusive and non-judgmental, and why uncountered condemnation of homosexuality is so dangerous. If you’re going to brainwash people, at least brainwash them to be nice!!
Killing anyone for any reason other than self-defence is despicable! Killing because a god orders you to do it is just psychotic.
I for one am not for killing period. I’m pro-life in every way.
Kevin, if you had to kill an intruder hell- bent on raping and killing your wife and children, you’d do it. Trust me, you would. It’s not something that the rational mind can control. When the autonomic nervous system kicks in- you’re in another world altogether.
If you’re completely pro-life, how do you square that with God’s order to the Israelites to go on homicidal rampages? It doesn’t compute.
I have a question. It wanders quite far from the original topic, so I hope it’s not considered rude of me, but the conversation is meandering in this direction anyhow.
The Bible claims there is an afterlife. That all who die will be judged and given their reward or punishment, both which last for all eternity. That essentially makes this life a test for the next. I understand that there are several different decalogues in the Bible, but I’m pretty sure they all forbid modern man from taking human life under any circumstances.
Given this, how can any Christian argue for going to war? It is said there are “just wars” and “unjust wars” according to the laws of men, but “just” or otherwise, people are still going to be killed. Shouldn’t a Christian rather die at the hands of another than kill in self-defense? After all, this life is relatively unimportant. Likewise, shouldn’t a Christian rather see their family killed than kill to defend them? Would this not also apply to an allied country, or to one’s own country?
Maybe it seems ridiculous to expect this sort of pacifism in “this day and age”. But I believe this is exactly how modern Jainists would behave. Perhaps even the Quakers? Why is not every Christian a conscientious objector? I assume there is a body of apologist work, I am just not familiar with it.
Geekwad, if you skim through the Old Testament, you’ll find enough barbarities ordered by God to satisfy the most bloodthirsty psychopath. Time and time again, “God” orders wholesale butcheries, ( including unborn babies) looting, razing of entire cities, enslavement, rape, torture, etc. God himself is the world’s worst mass murderer, if you believe that silly story of the Flood. Small children, newborn babies, old grandfathers, young mothers, kittens, puppies, and pet birds- it mattered not- they were all drowned.
Then he says “Thou shat not kill”. And people wonder why I laugh at him.
I think you’re still a pharisee.
Thanks Lance.