I have a lot of un-churched people read my blog. I am grateful for the insight they provide. I hope you feel this is a safe place to discuss and yes debate issues.
I want to ask a favor. I want to get to understand the Un-Churched a little better. Can you explain answers to the following questions:
- Why don’t you attend church?
- Why don’t you believe in God (for you atheists)
- If you did attend church at some time in your life, why did you stop going?
- What would entice you to attend church?
- Who or what do you turn to in times of need?
- What are your impression of churches?
- What are your impression of Christians?
- What are your impressions of clergy members?
- What things do I as a pastor need to understand to reach people like you?
- If you did attend church what would topics would appeal to you?
- If you did attend church what would you look for in a church
- What can I do for you?
Here is my promise. I won’t laugh, make fun or ridicule any of your answers. You can feel free to tell me the truth. I am seriously trying to understand the mind of those who don’t attend church. I look forward to reading your responses. Thanks in advance.
You really wanna know? LOL
Brian,
Yes! I really value your insight. Invite some of your friends to stop by too. I promise I won’t judge. Thanks in advance.
Brian,
Most of the “churched” are really bad at interacting with the “unchurched” even though we are called to be salt and light, so, it would be great for you and others to give an honest portrait of how those who aren’t “in the club” view the social club that is today’s church.
Hi Kevin & Bryan, OK, I will give it some thought. It might take a bit of time; although, I can’t tell you anything you haven’t heard in one fashion or another, likely. Maybe our articulate friend, Francoise, would like to take the lead!
Brian, just fyi my email is bwriley4[at]yahoo[dot]com
Hi Bryan,
Thanks. Did you & Kevin want the comments posted in this blog, or emailed separately to you?
Brian,
I would love them posted here. I want this site to be a “safe” place for believers & unbelievers to discuss issues with respect.
I really value your insight. If you don’t feel comfortable posting them here, my email is bamabusman@yahoo.com
ditto what kevin said. be frank, brian. you can be roy too, but frank and honest first and foremost.
Ok, thanks. You’ll be able to start a new topic, “Dealing with Heretics 101″ LOL
I got that down just living with myself, Brian.
Alrighty-o, here we go:
1 Why don’t you attend church?
I don’t share the beliefs; therefore, there is no point in attending. And which church would I attend? How many denominations are there within the Protestant branch, each with its own “speciality”? I also find that many churches dismiss other churches, because they don’t agree with various beliefs, so if believers can’t agree on things, then why would I be part of that?
2 Why don’t you believe in God (for you atheists)
Stories in the Bible don’t add up — too much mystique. Couldn’t God show more interest in his people than just by leaving an abstract user manual? No offence, but what was John drinking when he told the stories in Revelation?
3 If you did attend church at some time in your life, why did you stop going?
Many of us stopped attending around the same time — too much brow-beating from the pulpit, with everything from strange beliefs, to being pushed for increases in tithing (what? 15% is not enough?!) Some of us went shopping for new spiritual homes, and some faded away; however, in big cities, I am told that this is not necessarily unusual. Also, condemnation, judgments, criticism, gossip (some of it being quite malicious) from church people had its effect, plus racial prejudice — none of which fit my beliefs of the day. I understand that not all churches are like that, but when I hear of respected religious leaders making certain statements, I am glad that I am not part of that system, in any way.
4 What would entice you to attend church?
Very little! Although, I will enter any cathedral to attend an organ recital or concert, or to admire the art, windows, architecture, to learn of the history, or for some peace & quiet. But for regular service attendance, I have no desire to attend.
5 Who or what do you turn to in times of need?
I tend to think things through on my own, and I will do some reading & research. If I am absolutely stuck, I will ask a close friend or my doctor for their opinion. I try to maintain a common sense approach about things and I prefer to remain calm. The sky is not falling, C. Little.
6 What are your impression of churches?
They are gathering places for believers to meet and to receive inspiration from spiritual leaders, and for the members to make their own contributions. They are also places for social interaction, with various activities & fellowship offered for all age groups.
7 What are your impression of Christians?
I can’t generalize; that would be entirely wrong. I know some who are amazing people and who are interested, truly, in other people, and who do wonderful things to help their members and the community. (And by “Christians”, I include church-goers who might not necessarily be considered as being saved, according to Baptist standards.) I also know some who love to sound their voice as a trumpet, to show how they are close to God, whilst being impatient and indignant with others who don’t meet their approval. This is very off-putting to me (spiritual pride & arrogance).
8 What are your impressions of clergy members?
Please refer to my answer in No. 7.
9 What things do I as a pastor need to understand to reach people like you?
I don’t think that will happen (for me), but perhaps pastors (in general) could have more flexibility in understanding other people, and not be so dogmatic (to avoid being perceived as being rigid and disinterested) and be less condemning of the world, general (again, sanctimonious spiritual pride is what we see when that happens.)
10 If you did attend church what would topics would appeal to you?
Hmmm … not sure if most of the regular discussion would appeal. Much is based on supposed events to which I don’t relate. It is very hard to build faith when one cannot accept the basics as having validity.
11 If you did attend church what would you look for in a church
Right now, I am not looking, so I don’t think in those terms. There are many churches around, with many differing beliefs and styles of sermon delivery. I have been to most of them at one time or another, and I don’t feel compelled to attend regularly.
12 What can I do for you?
At this point, nothing, but thanks for the offer.
most of the people who do not attend church do not do so due to thier lack of desire to go. they dont want to go. they have no desire to worship the Lord and learn the bible. thus, they dont go.
if i was a lost man, i would not go to church either. church would be the last place i would go. i would be doing what the rest of the worldy, lost crowd would be doing. hunting or fishing or skiing or sleeping in or going to the zoo, etc. i would not go to church.
thus, the very fact that some people dont want to attend church just shows the spiritual condition of thier heart. lost. dont know God.
david
Brian,
Thanks for the honest replies to Kevin’s questions. Those are humbling remarks to those of us who call ourselves Christians. I appreciate you for sharing your insight.
Take Care – SD
Thanks Brian,
How could I be more understanding to others viewpoints and keep my convictions?
Kevin,
What a wonderful way to use your blog! I’m sitting here drinking in Brian’s comments. I truly hope more people will respond.
I could tell you what I think, but that would be coming from a pastor’s point of view and probably way off base. I’d rather hear the real reasons from those who don’t go to church.
Les
Hi Kevin,
You’re welcome. I’m not sure if there is an answer to your latest question, though. You have your beliefs which you must maintain and not compromise. Not everybody is going to see things the same way as another person (regardless of the beliefs being discussed), so perhaps folks just have to agree to disagree on some things; hopefully, without getting upset.
Brian,
I know we never met, but I do respect you and care for you as a person. I pray you will stay around and add your insight!
Thanks Les!
Thanks, Kevin. I ain’t goin’ nowhere! Thanks to everyone for the comments.
Thanks for the compliment, Brian my canadian cousin, but you’re no sloush at the articulate business yourself!
OK, Kevin, let’s not pussy-foot around with this “unchurched” jazz. Why not be upfront and call us what you really think we are, ie
hell-bound, damned, etc. LOL
1
Thanks for the compliment, Brian my Canadian cousin, seeing that you’re no slouch at the articulate business yourself!
OK, Kevin, let’s not pussy-foot around with this “unchurched” jazz. Why not be upfront and call us what you really think we are, ie hell-bound, damned, etc. LOL
1 I attend church for weddings and funerals. One of the former was a Presbyterian service, and it was so joyless that I wondered why anyone would be bothered getting hitched. The latter are predictable, as the ministers of whatever denomination always assume that the departed is in Heaven.
2
Francoise,
For some reason your post got caught in my spam box. Sorry.
I really would be interested in your insight!
Thanks for the compliment, Brian, my Canadian cousin, seeing that you’re no slouch at the articulate business yourself!
OK, Kevin, let’s not pussy-foot around with this “unchurched” jazz. Why not be upfront and call us what you really think we are, ie hell-bound, damned, doomed, etc. LOL
1 I only attend churches for weddings and funerals. One of the former was a Presbyterian service, and it was so joyless that I wondered why anyone would be bothered getting hitched. The latter are predictable, as the ministers of whatever denomination always assume that the departed, regardless how they lived their lives, is in Heaven.
2 As I have repeatedly stated- the onus is on the ones making the claims to prove their case. Not one believer has ever done that to my satisfaction. My position is that there may well be supernatural being/s, but whether there is one or many, who can possibly tell? Extravagant claims require extravagant proof. You believers constantly make claims about the laws of Nature being violated, but you cannot produce a skerrick of evidence to support your case. Donkeys can’t talk, the dead rot away in their graves, and sexual intercourse is required to produce a child. ‘Nuff said.
3 Mainly because I simply couldn’t force myself to swallow all the nonsense that was being spouted from the pulpit AND because it struck me that the so-called believers didn’t really believe in a God who saw their every move, and was marking them down for the fiery pit. If they truly believed, they wouldn’t be doing some of the things that they did.
4 That’s easy. Nothing. Absolutely nothing!!
5 Self or hubby.
6 By this, I assume that you mean the buildings. How would I define them? As places wherein after-life insurance is sold.
7 I take each and every person as an individual in their own right, irrespective of their beliefs or lack of same. I know some delightful Christians and some horrid atheists, so I do not judge a person solely by their attitudes towards the supernatural, only by how they treat their fellow-human. Besides, the term “Christian” is so open to so many interpretations, that it’s become meaningless. The WBC considers itself to be the only true Christians, but I dare say that 99% of other believers would dispute that. Let me put it this way- if a person describes themself as a Christian, that’s enough for me to assume that they hold certain beliefs which I do not share.
8 One of my dearest friends is a Catholic priest, but I know so very few that it’s hard to answer. Again, it all depends on what they are like as individuals. If they treat others well, then they’re OK by me.
9 Maybe some of us don’t want to be reached. Maybe you should read up on the findings about the human brain, and what scientists have discovered about different physiologies. Some people are pre-wired to believe in the supernatural. Others, like me, require evidence before we will give credence to whatever is being taught.Your starting point is that there is a God ( by your understanding of the word) and then you proceed from there as though it is a proven fact. Not so. First, you have to convince us that there IS a supernatural, all-seeing, all-wise etc being. That, I’m afraid, is a Herculean task, because we skeptics tend to ask far too many questions. For every claim you make about your deity, we will question you and require proof.
10 What topics would appeal? Linguistics, history, philosophy, poetry, literature, maths, science and so on. Not fairy tales.
11 Realistic expectations!
12
Aaaaarrrrggghh!!!!
Wow, now there are those who would not only speak for what Baptists should believe but for the unchurched too.
These are good comments, brian, and Francoise. I’m really not surprised. If I didn’t have the faith I have I probably wouldn’t be that interestd in going either, but not for the reasons David described. I wouldn’t be interested in going to a place where people acted as though they had it all together even though they didn’t, especially when their own teachings and alleged faith is not in their having it together but in God. So, seeing the masquerade week in and week out would be really difficult to stomach. It’s difficult to stomach for anyone.
I don’t understand your idea of God being abstract and far off. I see Him in everything, at least when I’m not too focused on me, myself, and I or something else that I want to idolize. Help me understand how the bible and how life draws you to that conclusion.
Francoise, I definitely hope you will make time to write more of your answers. It must have been long to be spammed!
Volfan/David,
Do you not see the need to understand those that don’t attend church. Just to casually say they are lost doesn’t sound very understanding.
I believe it is up to church leaders like me to make church relevant to those who don’t attend church. It isn’t their fault, it is ours for making church religious and boring rather than what is should be–a celebration.
Man, God radically changed my life and I want others to experience that abundant life here and for eternity.
Just when I was on my last word. Proof positive that there is no God!!!:)LOL.
2 As I have repeatedly stated, the onus is on the one making the claims, and no believer has ever produced a skerrick of evidence to substantiate same. My position is that there may well be supernatural being/s, but whether one or many, who can possibly tell? And what is their authority? I don’t believe in your God and you don’t believe in the Muslim God. That makes both of us atheists by someone’s definition! We infidels require proof. Extravagant claims require extraordinary proof. Donkeys do NOT talk. The dead rot away in their graves. Spooks do not impregnate virgins; sexual intercourse is needed to produce a baby. ‘Nuff said.
3 Because I could not pretend to believe the nonsense that was being spouted from the pulpit. I simply did not and could not believe it. I lack the ability to perform the cerebral gymnastics required to believe that
2 + 2 = 5. I am incapable of what Orwell called “doublethink”. ( I wouldn’t have lasted a second in his nightmarish society!!) That, AND because the behaviour of some of the believers led me to conclude that they didn’t really, in their heart of hearts, believe that there was an all-seeing God who was marking them down for the fiery pit. If they believed, they wouldn’t be behaving as they did. End of story.
4 That’s easy. Nothing. Absolutely nothing!!!!
5 Self and hubby. Or friends.
6 Churches are buildings wherein after-life insurance is sold.
7 The term “Christian” is so open to so many interpetations! Your definition of the word is different from mine. The WBC considers itself the only true Christian church, and I dare say that 99% of believers would disagree with them. Let’s put it this way, if someone describes themself as a Christian, that lets me know that they have certain beliefs which I do not share. I have met some truly horrible people who labelled themselves as Christians. However, I judge each and every person as an individual in their own right, and the only criterion for judgement is: How do they treat their fellow creatures?
8 I don’t know many, but a very dear friend is a delightful Catholic priest. Clergy are as human as anyone else, and as unique in their individuality. Again, how do they treat their fellow creatures? That is the only standard by which a human being can be judged. If I hear of misbehaving clergy, I give them the benefit of the doubt until they’re proved guilty.
9 You really need to understand that maybe we don’t want to be “reached” – maybe we just enjoy chatting and debate and learning how others think, and why they think as they do. Human beings are a source of endless fascination to me! You need to understand that we do not share your belief that we are a “burden” to you. What you should grapple with is that we skeptics will ALWAYS ask questions. No matter what claim you make, we will question it. You believe in God and use that as a starting point- we say, first, before you start making claims about God’s attributes, you must first prove that he/she exists. I know, a truly Herculean task!!
10 Science, maths, history, philosophy, biology, astronomy, literature, poetry, etc ad infinitum. Not fairy tales designed to allay our horror of death being the final act.
11 Fun and learning.
12 Just go on being your usual sweet self!!
Kevin,
I’ve gone round and round with my childhood bestfriend who was also my college roommate in Athens about this subject.
I think most of the unchurched are theists (like my friend Kurt – he was raised Methodist). We grew up in small-town Georgia. The churches are “country” and frankly boring. Contemporary music has yet to make its way to many parts South Georgia – good sermons are few.
Kurt’s church experience never stimulated his mind or his emotions. He’s at Emory in med school now – smart guy – so the anti-education element that is so pervasive in small-town churches was a turn off.
Kurt found community among his family and friends but never his church. His experience left him so bitter towards the “church” that he still refers to the devout as “Holy Rollers.” While committed and faithful, the Christians at our high school were judgmental and extremely cliquish. Those kids never had a chance of reaching the unchurched when they were constantly judging those who preferred a cold beer over a youth group function after the Friday football game.
I grew up in South Georgia but went to college/worked in Athens and Atlanta (now Waco). It’s terribly hard to reach the unchurched in small towns. Luring a friend to 7:22 is much much easier than getting one to visit a small town country church.
If you put your faith in art, there’s a start, Francoise, for art cannot be proven, not scientifically.
Not all operates in the realm of science, even in this world. 
I like your comment a lot. And, I like what you say about being reached. There’s nothing I can really do to reach anyone… But I can believe that God can reach people and I will pray for that and pray that I do nothing to prevent the same.
Francoise,
Thanks for your honesty and openness.
So I need to talk more about conversations and less about reaching? I got it.
If I had a message series on Science, Math, Philosophy, etc… and the Bible would that appeal to you?
Thanks again.
BDW,
Thanks for sharing. I would like to attend 722 myself!
kevin,
back before i got saved, i hated church. my parents made me go to church. i didnt like it. and, if you had served alcohol, and had pretty girls dancing on the platform, and showed football games, then i probably would have liked coming to church. i really dont think having rock christian music would have helped me come to church…i had my own record player and eight track player….i could listen to lynyrd skynyrd and molly hatchet and the doobie brothers in my car with friends.
i really dont think that you could have done a whole lot to make me like church as a lost person.
after i got saved……..wild horses couldnt have kept me from church. and, it was a little, country church that only sang hymns, etc.
the difference, my bro. kevin, was not the worship style, but my heart. my heart was different. the nite the Lord saved me i was drunk on jack daniels. i was partying with my friends. and, the Holy Spirit convicted my heart as i lay on the parking lot of a cafe in a small town called bolivar, tn. i lay there…drunk as a skunk…and i repented of my sins and put my faith in Jesus. and, the Lord saved me that nite. He absolutely changed my life that very nite. after that, i strangely liked reading the bible and going to church and praying.
imagine that.
david
David,
PTL! That is a fantastic testimony of what God has done in your life.
But if you don’t have relationships with the un-churched and they just ignore you, don’t you think that it is up to us as church leaders to find ways to connect? I do and have given my life to do so.
God calls us all in different ways, David. Thank you for sharing your path; it is a great comment.
Bryan, your comment about art has me copmpletely bemused.
Kevin, thanks for the offer, but I find the Bible either revolting, or boring. Very little is at all interesting. I seriously think I will run amuck if ever I hear another of the “begats”!!
One of my passions is Vedic maths- if the Bible incorporates that, I may be tempted…
Re my doubling up of messages- I don’t know how that happened. Is it me, or the computer, or what?? I am not tech-savvy. I won’t mind if you clear one of them away to make room. Honest!
Francoise,
If you ever get bored, right above the recent comments you can click and here my recent talks.
Thanks, Kevin, but please bear in mind that I have trouble with some American accents, so I may not necessarily understand all of what you say. I needed my mates to iterpret quite a few times whilst in California!!!!!!
Francoise,
California?
I have a strong southern accent! I’m from Alabama!
Don’t get me wrong, Francoise, some art is very scientific, but it can’t all be explained so easily.
Beyond that I need some flesh to your comment because I don’t know why it was confusing/bemusing. Perhaps my ignorance of art creates the confusion?
Kevin,
Your accent is not that strong — at least, not to me. It is there, but it didn’t strike me as being overly strong.
Can you hear me chuckling? On my first day in San Franscico, jetlagged and weary, I staggered into a bar/grill to restore the tissues, and in walked a HUUUUGE African bloke, also from Alabama, as it later transpired. We got chatting about your ghastly Mr Bush and his illegal, immoral war, and the gent denounced the pretext for the invasion as ( as it sounded to me) “LAHZ! LAHZ! LAHZ!” It took me a while to realise that the word meant “falsehoods”! Anyway, he grabbed my hand and announced that, though he’d been planning to go to the elections, “God” was telling him to do a more important job. He started saying words, and asked me to repeat them. I did,
( you don’t argue with a 6′ 7″ gent who weighed in at about 400 kgs) with scarcely an idea of what I was saying. He then announced that I was saved, saved, saved!!! I thanked him politely. At that point, an argument broke out at the bar and my companion was ecstatically happy. He attributed the bad vibes to “Satan” being cranky that another soul had been wrenched from the fiery pit, and away he went, as happy as a lark. Well, it made his day, and it was something to write about in my travel diary.LOL
Bryan, I never said I put my faith in art. That’s why I don’t comprehend your comments.
Hi Bryan,
I’m just now reviewing some of the comments and I noticed yours, particularly the one about the view of God being abstract, and how you see him in everything (message No. 24). I agree that there are many things that amaze me, in much the same way.
For example, in the city here I rarely see stars, maybe one here, or there, etc., but never many at any time. Last week, I was in the country and the sky was full of stars. I looked around, wondering how far away they are or how far they are from each other, but of course we don’t know the size and intensity of each one, so there is really no way for most of us to determine the placement. Are the stars actually suns for other planets? Or are they planets? If so, are they (or have they been) inhabited? And what is beyond the scope of our eyesight? Do the galaxies ever end? Do they continue into infinity and how did they come to exist? And how long have they been there? Will they always be there?
The best that I can honestly answer is: Who knows? (And who is Who?) Even if evolution and Big Bang should exist, how did they get their start? From what did we evolve, and how was the origin created? Again, Who knows? But, at the same time, to say that the answer is within the first pages of Genesis just does not do it for me. I read the first few chapters again last evening, and it all seemed so simple and cut and dried, like: “this is the way it is”. But yet, it just does not make sense to me, and as I continued reading, the increasing troubles of mankind (Cain & Abel, for example), well, everything was slowly getting worse. Fast forward to Revelation. Whatever happened to that beautiful garden that Genesis talks about? Instead of beauty, we have terrible stories of impending destruction. What a way to ruin things!
So (after all of that rambling — hope I didn’t lose you), my point is that even IF there is a God who exists, I don’t see the printed word (as it exists in its accepted form) as being the definitive, inerrant word of God. There has to be more than that! I think it is an attempt to explain things (by man), because man will always want to know the meaning of life. And let’s not forget that people in the past often attributed goodness or disaster to whatever mood that God (or the gods) was/were in. Combine that with superstitions and fear, and see the effect.
And I realize that this is where faith enters into the scope of things, for believers. But if I can’t get my head around the basics, then, to me, God is an abstract concept (based on mystique), Since I find the stories in the Bible to be so far-fetched and unbelievable, I can’t build any true faith. I would be fooling myself.
Hi Francoise! That’s quite a story about your new friend. Struth Doreen! (sorry, couldn’t resist. LOL)
Hi, Brian. There are some Jewish thinkers who state that the Bible was never intended to be read literally, ( oh, the relief!) and anyone who tries to do so is doing themself a dissservice. Check out kabbalah if you’re interested in the hidden meaning of the Genesis fable. As a matter of fact, all of the “mystery” religions of antiquity taught about the earth’s origins, not its end. I would love to know how their beliefs accord with what astronomy can tell us.
Like you, I often star-gaze. If you are into astronomy, I suggest you fly Down Under, go to Central Australia where there’s no artifical light, lie down on the ground, and be prepared for the nightly display of shooting stars. Wonderful!
You mention the Book of so-called Revelation. I, too, have often wondered what “John” was smoking! But seriously, he cribbed it from Zoroastrian scriptures, and a lot of it refers to solar worship. Check out all the gem stones he mentions, and then look at any birthday book you can find in a stationer’s. Yep. It’s all about the 12 months of the year. Any mention of 12 alerts you to solar worship.
Brian- just noticed your message to me. Hee, hee. Yes, a real blast. “Saved”, and unaware of it! Struth Doreen, indeed!
Brian, exactly! I love your comment.
Here is some of what I believe regarding the revelation of God (not the book… i mean the revealing of God to humanity).
There is the written revelation of God, with all its human trappings (our poor ability to understand, translations, clerical issues, and the fact that we may misinterpret whether something was written originally as illustrative versus written literally). That would be the Bible.
There is the revelation of God through Creation, as you sense in the apparently limitless nature of the starry heavens. I would also add that although I believe that God is plenty big enough to have created immediately, or in 6 literal days, or in billions of years, I think the main point of the creation story is to glorify that God created… He is the beginning that we all seek to understand.
There is the revelation of God through the person of Jesus.
There is the revelation of God through the Holy Spirit, directly to the individual.
I’d ask you this, because my beliefs above really aren’t necessarily that helpful to this discussion, now that I’ve thought about it, but could it be that it isn’t so much that the bible is far fetched but that human minds struggle with the infinte nature of God? It isn’t that God is abstract; it is that we aren’t able to comprehend something that is infinite?
Also, I don’t see how it hinders one faith to understand some of the stories of the bible as just that: stories that illustrate God’s principles and laws that govern the created order. At the same time, I think God could do all that is in the bible, but the significance of much of the bible is that it reveals Who God is.
Hi Bryan,
Well, if God created this world and the heavens in six days, and rested on the seventh day (why would he need to rest?), or if he took more time than that, or if he simply nodded and everything was created instantly, then what is the purpose of any of it? And if I can’t get my head around the very basis of it all, then the rest that follows does not make sense to me, either.
Such as: Noah and his mission. How much time passed from creation to the time of the flood? Unless a lot of other information is missing in the Bible, it seems, to me, that God was quite unhappy and impatient with things early in the game, and that only Noah and a small group of others were allowed to be spared. If that is the case, then what does that say about the condition then compared to the world today? Just how bad were those people? We must be saints compared to them! Unless, of course, tsunamis and hurricanes are judgments from God.
And then I could also comment on the building of the ark … how did Noah have the engineering know-how about building such a seaworthy ship? I could see him putting a raft together, but a big ship like that? And then, of course, the collection of the animals. Sometimes it is hard to coax a koala bear from the top of a tree. Polar bears don’t like to go too far from cold places. And how did Noah get the animals to enter the ark without rebellion? (Try telling your cat to do anything.) Assuming that the story is correct, and that everybody was safely on board, the next part is the falling of the rain. How did the entire planet become swallowed by so much water, so quickly? Wasn’t that a bit extreme? Did Noah have time to consider the dietary needs of the various animals, and what about drinking water, and we won’t discuss hygiene issues (Kevin’s video comes to mind). After that, the water miraculously disappeared. Where did it go? What did Noah see when he docked? Decomposing corpses and mud for as far as the eye could see? “Welcome home.” It must have been rather messy getting the critters back to their original places. And then how long was it before God was displeased again?
You see where I am going with this. To me it is just another story that I can’t accept. And there are so many of those stories in the Bible that are like that. I could list many examples and develop my thoughts, but I won’t (for now, LOL.)
Again, if God is God, God could make all that happen. But, it also could be that it is an illustrative story, a story of deliverance. Redemption. And that redemption comes from God alone and not from man.
I hear you, definitely. But your challenges are about your ability to grasp, not about God’s ability to grasp you and not about the reality of a God. Just because we may not do a good job of understanding His written word doesn’t make God any less.
And I cannot accept that which I cannot grasp — and that includes the concept of redemption, in its entirety.
Think the answers here are certainly enlightening from the perspective that the culture today really doesn’t want to hear the Gospel as it stands and must be preached – rather most desire to sit in a church and hear a social Gospel – something that will make them feel good, and warm, and welcomed – not the Gospel Jesus gives that is radical, life changing and an offence to everyone who hears it. However, I think it’s commendable that those who don’t believe are willing to share their views here, and help to provide some insight indeed as to what does appeal to them. I often think its so sad that so many refuse to look only to Jesus to base their determinations on and not us or the church. If they did, they would discover a life that is rich beyond anything the world can or ever will offer, peace not as the world offers, an immense inner joy (also totally irrational and unexplainable), security and hope for their eternity. The sad fact is that none of us have any comprehension of what heaven or hell will be like, and by the time we do discover, for some sadly it will be too late to plead with God for forgiveness and mercy as their fate will be sealed. Salvation is about the only free gift I’ve ever heard of that people not only happily refuse, but go out of their way to avoid receiving!
Brian,
I think it takes more faith to believe in chance or evolution than to believe God created the world.
Tikkiro,
Thanks for stopping by.
Kevin, you’re right. And without being able to believe in something to start with, I can’t build faith — particularly when so many believers have differing views and will debate their various, different points forever.
Anyway, not to be concerned with me … the point of your original request was to help you to understand the un-churched.
Have you ever asked for faith?
Yes, more times that I can count (or remember). But that’s getting into Ancient History, and I don’t go back that far.
Anyway, I hope my answers results have been helpful in some way.
Brian,
What is the one thing that keeps you from going to church?
Please refer to my answers again; I am sure I answered things there. And that is all I can say for now.
Fair enough,
Why do you come to my site?
I love having you, I’m just curious. Please continue!
To Brian and Kevin-
I can answer that, Kevin. It’s because you’re open to us infidels chipping in with our ten cents’ worth! You actually listen. I could name other sites where the attitude of the bloggers is very arrogant and aggressive. You kow the kind I mean, “I’m right, and everyone else is dead wrong.” Closed-minded.
Brian, there is a local church which welcomes all the marginalised folk. Prostitutes, druggies, gays, divorcees, transgenders, etc. All of them say the same thing- “Here we feel accepted as human beings in our own right.” If you’re ever in Melbourne, I’d be happy to drag you along.
Tikkiro ( is that a real name?) may I ask why you say that the Gospel offends everyone who hears it? Yours, very mystified, Francoise
Francoise,
I second your statement, I feel welcomed here also and have been thrown off other Conservative (well, pretty much just Baptist) blogs.
Here I feel welcome, and allowed to be somewhat less than worthy in my own way.
Francoise and MIT,
Thanks. I hope you always feel loved and welcomed.
MIT, you are always welcome at my blog; I just dont’ know if it will mean much to you or not. I think some would like me away, too.
It’s just our families’ journey and things God has been teaching us for the most part. Francoise, the same goes for you. I’m just a crazy guy who talks about faith. So, it may not be as interesting as Kevin’s as he often hits on fun, odd bits of current happenings. I definitely love being challenged and hope I am someone anyone would feel comfy talking to.
Bryan, you don’t strike me as being in the least crazy.
How does one get onto your blog? I first found Kevin’s through Googling around for Shirley Phelps Roper, that poor, horribly abused woman.
MIT, how do those others chuck you off their blog? I don’t understand technical stuff.
Francoise,
Bryan’s blog is on my right side under blogs-missions or just click on his name. He is a cool guy who just left his law career to be a missionary.
http://charisshalom.fjministries.com or what Kevin said. You probably know this, Francoise, given your literacy level and education, but Charis is Greek for grace and Shalom is Hebrew for peace. I pray I display both. By the way, I don’t know much Greek or Hebrew, but I liked the name, knew those two words, and liked the concept of tying together the Old and New Testaments. (Because I believe they are very unified…although I know that sounds strange to you given your view of the Old Testament.)
I’m glad I don’t sound too crazy… evil grin here.
Kevin, thanks for that.
Bryan – So you left law, eh? That’s proof that you’re not crazy.It sends everyone off their rockers eventually.
Francoise,
They ask me to leave and not come back, not to post. They have done it via email, or on the blog itself. I try very hard to be respectful of others views, and if they don’t care to have me around, I respect that as well.
monk,
i too dont go to blogs where i am not welcome. thats why i dont go to streak’s blog anymore.
david
I learn from those who think differently than me. I value others views.
MIT, that’s a shame that some people are so narrow and unaccepting. I certainly haven’t seen anything offensive in what you say.
Hi Francoise – sorry for late response. (St) Paul was the first one to state that – that the Gospel is an offence (1 Peter 2:8 KJV) – he’s basically saying that it is an offensive message to those who’re in sin, because it reveals their state to them, and thus they close their ears to the message. I think it’s quite a true statement given the hostility today towards the Christian message – while I accept that denominations have for the most part perhaps got sidetracked by their own politics & doctrines etc, the mere mention of Jesus in some circles or even God when it pertains to the JudeoChristian GOD, is proving just as divisive and offensive. Another reason we know the time is coming very near the end when Jesus will return for His own (Matt 24). Enjoying this thread.
Thanks Tikkiro ( is that Japanese name?)
Is it possible that some may just be indifferent, rather than hostile?
As for jesus’s alleged return, folks have been predicting that for 2000 years. He himself indicated that it would be in the lifetime of his followers. Who’s correct?
Kevin,
I have sat here reading comment after comment and what I have come to realize is this, we can only offer the words of life and try to break up the hard ground of worldly values and theologies. In simple words of a Oklahoman (not a okie that is someone who has left the state) tell them truth but don’t be offended if they roll there eyes and shake their head it is God’s job though the Holy Spirit to open there eyes and hearts. In the place I live and serve I had to work on letting God be God. I wish everyone would know how great God is and how much He loves me and how much He really does love Them!!!! The only way to keep the door open is to stay available to those who don’t know Him and be their friends.
Well that’s a lot of words for simply saying “love your neighbor as yourself”.
In Him
Kevin
Some would say indifference may be even more hostile that hostility.
Volfan, you are welcome to encounter me, even though we seem to often disagree. But, like Kevin, I have a lot to learn and, I hope I can be more like Will Rogers… never meeting a man I didn’t like. I have faith that God has a message for me through all interaction.
Francoise – apologies -forgot to clarify about my nickname – no, sorry not a real name – a joining of Tikki which is short for Tikvah – Hebrew for hope and the name I gave my handreared cat
, and the first two letters of my own name.
Jesus, as the prophets before Him spoke in ‘eternal’ terms – His Word was to endure forever thus be relevant to all generations. If he had indicated when his return would be, there would have been little point in the disciples doing much with their lives until near that point – thus we are told to continually be prepared and waiting for our Bridegroom – the whole of the New Covenant as given by Jesus is modelled on the Jewish Wedding hence Jesus’ mention of it as a parable in relation to the Kingdom of Heaven, and we are currently the Bride (the Church) waiting for His arrival. Jewish brides traditionally don’t know when their grooms father will send him to fetch them – that is for the groom’s father alone to determine, and Jesus’ return is the same. However, Jesus advised us to watch for the signs of His return, and they are being fulfilled in our lifetime more than any other – the most notable of which was the recreation of Israel within a day, and the continued return of the Jews to their homeland. Hence as none of us knows the day or the time He will return, we are exhorted to ensure our lives are acceptable to the Father through the Son by way of his perfect and acceptable sacrifice for our sins – an atonement we can never, ever fulfil on our own merit. But that’s perhaps straying onto issues you don’t desire to debate here?
). Blessings and thank you for your questions, TKR
OK, Tikkiro,thanks for that. It still doesn’t explain the passage where Jesus said that there were some there present with him who would not taste of detah until he returned. Seems a bit suss to me.
Anyway, I love your cat’s name! (Mine is “Slasher” for obvious reasons.)
Brian. you’re talking like a lawyer! There IS such a thing as indifference.
Greetings. This post is a bit stale, but hey, this is the Information Age; content never has to expire. I think its worth commenting on, even if I’m late to the party.
1. Why don’t you attend church?
I’m a do-it-yourself-er and a bottom-up-er. I study on my own, and when I feel competent enough on a subject, I join *small* groups in order to collaborate. Churches represent the antithesis of my approach.
2. Why don’t you believe in God (for you atheists)
God does not contribute to my understanding of “the true nature of reality”. The concept of God does not explain anything, in that it does not allow me to make meaningful predictions.
Take a contrived example. On one side, we have, “Rain is God’s tears.” On the other side we have, “Rain is part of the hydrological cycle.” Obviously no mortal can predict where God is going to cry, and God isn’t so great with the communication skills, so under the first hypothesis, one might just as well throw a dart at a map to figure out where to build a farm. The second hypothesis tells me that before it can rain, water has to evaporate, and the water-laden air has to blow over the farm. So, for instance, near a coast with an inland air current is a good place to find rain, but in the rainshadow of a mountain range is a poor place because the air coming over the mountains will have all the water squeezed out and there will be nothing to precipitate.
3. If you did attend church at some time in your life, why did you stop going?
I told my parents I did not believe, and they stopped forcing me to go.
4. What would entice you to attend church?
A “religion” that did not ask for faith, did not require other forms of magical thinking, and had something to contribute to my understanding of reality.
5. Who or what do you turn to in times of need?
Sometimes I can take comfort in the impermanent nature of existence. Sometimes that’s a bummer. Sometimes I take comfort in the company of friends, sometimes I take comfort in solitude. Sometimes I turn to creative expression, sometimes I turn to a nice fat joint. (Before you judge too harshly, read up on what “the Messiah” — “the Anointed” — most likely would have been anointed with. It ain’t just olive oil.)
6. What are your impression of churches?
A good way to control the masses.
7. What are your impression of Christians?
Holier-than-I, and proud of it. Abdicates reason and intellectual honesty for the sake of comfort.
8. What are your impressions of clergy members?
Friggin’ scary. Either they believe that God talks to them, or they are inveterate charlatans. What’s worse? It is not at all surprising to me how often you read about clergy preaching one thing but believing and behaving quite differently. Even the “honest” ones, perhaps quite secular and just looking for the best way to help the most people, must be under tremendous stress from the “cognitive dissonance”. It has to come out somehow.
9. What things do I as a pastor need to understand to reach people like you?
Speak to earthly concerns. Be a facilitator, not a leader. Do not invoke magical thinking in your arguments. Understand humanism. Respect this life, even if you think its only a test for the real thing. Do not fall into the trap of believing faith makes you a better person. Live and let live. Stay current in scientific study, or refrain from comment. Have a life outside the church; do not be insular. Do not attempt to exploit fear; do not call me a sinner damned to hell, do not invoke boogeymen like devils and demons, do not try to blame tragedy on God’s wrath and Man’s fallen state. Instead, appeal to Man’s better nature.
10. If you did attend church what would topics would appeal to you?
Ethics and morality which can be argued for without requiring supernatural agents. How individuals can improve the world, where “improved” does not necessarily mean “the way I think God wants it,” but rather “minimizes suffering in THIS life.”
11. If you did attend church what would you look for in a church
Robust and friendly debate. Egalitarianism. Open-mindedness. Community involvement with NO STRINGS ATTACHED. (q.v. our good friend, Dr. Merrill the pediatrician.) The belief that the church in question represents a way, not the way. Where shall we behold the Kingdom?
12. What can I do for you?
This blog is a good start! Whether you have faith in God, or whether you have faith in Man, (or, like myself, neither) if the conclusions you come to are true, then they are true universally. Venues like this, where the godly and the godless can come together and share views, are important to finding those universal truths.
It only takes “faith” to believe in “evolution” (assuming we’re speaking of the same things) if you do not test it. That is the beauty of scientific theory. You don’t have to take our word for it.
As a programmer wanting to test the theory of natural selection, what I did was write a framework for evolving code through crossover and mutation. I loaded the framework with random garbage, and I executed the garbage in pairs, pitting the nascent programs as opponents in a game of tic-tac-toe. The most successful programs go on to parent the next generation, the least successful are deleted.
Lo and behold but, many hours later, I had a competent tic-tac-toe player. And a few days after that, a *perfect* tic-tac-toe player.
Evolution is not random. It is a highly ordered search algorithm of the nearly infinite genetic space. Evolution no more randomly tries combinations of genetic code than you look up a phone number by turning to random pages of the phone book. You open the book, perhaps randomly, determine the “fitness” of the page you are looking at, and then search in the direction of greater fitness. Repeat several times, and there’s your phone number. Of course, if you were God, you’d simply open the book to the right page. But why would you need a book at all? What is the point of all this reproductive machinery for searching the genetic space?
Of course, all the above proves is that it *could* have happened that way, not that it *did* happen that way. That evolution happened is not a theory. It is an observation. The theory is *how* it happened, not *if* it happened. This is a distinction that I think is often lost on people.
Geekwad,
Thanks for your insight. I hope you hang around more often.
Thanks for the soapbox. And feel free to laugh when I’m funny (intentionally or otherwise), make fun when THAT’s funny, and ridicule when I’m ridiculous.
Kevin,
I appreciate you and my pastor Jeff Crawford for tag-teaming this issue on both blogs. You can read my comments over there.
In Christ
Andrew \o/
Titus 2:!3
The word, “Theory” is understood differently by scientists and lay persons.
I don’t go to church because I am not walking in the Love of God to the point where I can forgive and tolerate all the hypocrites who judge me or others because we do not fit into the orthodox circle.
I don’t go to church because I don’t want to be spiritually abused.
The only person that knows who are His is God Himself. Unfortunately, there are those Pharisees who have taken it upon themselves to decide for God who are “really” His. Because after all, how can God know who are His? He’s not here, he didn’t create the Nicene Creed, or the Trinity theory, so how the heck can He know? He doesn’t have the capacity to see inside our hearts like those ortodox people can, right?
All the orthodox murdering crusaders are in heaven, that’s for sure…after all, they believed in the Trinity, right? But the unorthodox Jehovah Witnessess, who stuck up for Jewish people during the Holocaust, are burning in Hades right now. ??
It is hard to love those who think they know it all, but since I believe Jesus lives in me, that His love will keep growing inside of me and one day I can go back to the hypocrite church and instead see her as beautiful and spotless, truly blameless. Until then, my judgments will continue and I will also continue to stay away.
Theresa
Thanks for your insight Theresa.