I really am saddened once again about a failure of a famous pastor.
The founding pastor of The Church at Brook Hills has been suspended from his evangelistic ministry and resigned as chaplain of Samford University’s (my alma mater) football team after he admitted having an extramarital affair.
The pastor is a widely known evangelist who has given the invocation at NASCAR races, built The Church at Brook Hills from 30 members to some 4,000. He retired in 2005 amid health problems, including two brain surgeries, one an emergency operation for an aneurysm.
Read about it here.
Bob Cleveland wrote about it here.
[Update] Wade Burleson wrote about it here.
I read stories about this I am am heartbroken. This pastor is one of the most dynamic speakers I have ever heard. I still remember the message vividly that he preached at a conference I went to in 2001. It was the best message I’ve ever heard on Spiritual Gifts.
Ted Haggard was a pastor I respected for years. I listened to the CD’s of his praise band called Desperation. Yet he was living a lie and that was exposed last Fall.
Joel Gregory has the best “preacher” voice I’ve ever heard. My brother was visited by Dr. Gregory when he was pastor of 1st Baptist Dallas. Yet he wrote in his book Too Great a Temptation about his affair while he was pastor at 1st Dallas.
Gordon McDonald wrote books about healthy marriages then it comes out that he was unfaithful to his wife. This really hit home with my wife because she had just read his wife’s book.
The list could go on and on. Charles Stanley, Jim Bakker, and Jimmy Swaggart all have had marriage problems or sexual sins that have become public. I understand that we all are sinners but what is going on? Is there something that happens to people who make it big even in Christian circles? It is very disheartening to read these stories.
I wonder how and why God uses these men while they are in the middle of living a lie? I really don’t get that. There are many fine pastors, staff members and church members who trying to live a Godly life and yet we will never see the success that some will. Yet God allows a man having a 25 year affair to build a church from 30 to over 4000. Several have made fortunes writing books about their failures. Others have greater ministries than they did before.
I don’t get it. It makes me more Calvinistic everyday. It is obvious that I won’t understand God. He can do whatever He wants and I guess I’ll ask Him when I get to heaven. I may never be famous and probably would be better off not being known if it means throwing away my integrity and my family. I would rather be know for loving my wife and kids then building some great ministry for God if it means I have to compromise my standards or lose my family. I guess I will never get it.
The good news is that Jesus forgives all of us for the sins in our lives. This doesn’t excuse us and allow us to go out and run wild. But I am grateful that God will forgive everyone who asks Him forgiveness.
What do you think?
Filed under: Christian, Hypocrisy, adultery, church, faith, forgiveness, grace, ministry, morals, religion, sinful behavior
God has been known to use drunkards (Noah), willing-to-be murderers (Abram), murderers (Moses), adulterers (David), liars (Peter), and many other moral decrepits. Maybe the idea that even Christian leaders are human needs to be accepted in the church. Maybe thats the whole point of leadership – showing others how to deal with the imperfection that is humanity.
Spiritual Monkey,
Thanks for stopping by. You are correct. But shouldn’t we strive for better?
Hi KB, just a friendly word of caution, you mention that Charles Stanley had marital problems but that does not mean that he was in the middle of living a lie. One can have marital problems without one personally being in the midst of sin (Hosea). It takes two to make a marriage, but it only takes one to destroy it.
Sad. Ousley preached at the Oklahoma State Evangelism Conference just this past January.
Kevin-
I just finished Too Great a Temptation last week and I’d bet my last dollar that Gregory did not make that statement. He did speak of a rumor that he had a “girlfriend at an east Texas truck stop” but that was it. He also did mention his divorce in the final chapter, but no affair. Sonya also read it and remembers it the same way.
Can you instruct my memory on that one?
Kevin S.-
Stanley’s lie was that if he did divorce he would step down from pastoral ministry. Instead, the church amended its by-laws so that he could remain pastor. (At least that’s the story here in Atlanta.)
Paul-
And at the Ga Baptist Evangelism Conference last month.
All the more reason to avoid these hypocrites and their cults.
Kevin,
Everyone has a sin that easily besets them. We all struggle with one sin or another–lust, pride, a desire for power, honesty. The list goes on and on. I’m not saying that it makes what Ousley did right, of course it does not excuse him. But the man committed sin, why does that surprise you, if you really are Calvinistic? Your Calvinist leanings should make you celebrate God’s grace even more as a result of this news.
We were studying a book in Bible study recently about why good people do bad things. My Calvinist leanings made me mention to the group that it doesn’t suprise me when good people do bad things. I’m suprised that anyone does anything good at all. It is only because of God’s grace that any of us do anything good at all.
It could be that we have a “Jabez” mindset and expect God to increase and multiply the messenger, not the message. My pastor said yesterday that the message built Brook Hills, not the messenger.
As Dr. Welch reminded us in Greensboro, it’s the euangelion that’s the power of God unto salvation, not the euangelistou.
“I committed a moral and spiritual indiscretion with a woman not my wife,” he said. “That woman has decided to make this public.” Indescretion? Her fault it’s all out now? She was 18 at the start of it all? Was he her pastor then? Quarter century running?
Shame on all of us for throwing the first stone or the second or third! God knows that we are ALL (caps for emphasis, not yelling) failable creatures. KB, yes we should strive for better…but sometimes we fall anyway. Some of us repent, get back up and God uses us for even greater service. The only ones that have a production made of it is those that have recognizable names. If the truth were known to anyone but God……there would be folks in your congregation that you think are saints but are nothing but recovering sinners. I presume most of us posting on this blog are WASPS….I stand corrected if my presumption is incorrect….but in black baptist churches (I know because one of my closest friends and confidants is a black baptist preacher) things like this are not made a production of. It seems those churches understand human nature and our failings more than some of us. Get that hockey stick out of our collective eyes and lets get on with Kingdom building.
Kevin,
Marty is right. I had a friend on staff there at the time & she said Mrs. S got a bad rap. “Hosea?” I don’t think so. Why did his own son leave?
Jason,
Yes I’m glad God forgives. I’m just wondering how & why God uses people who are living a lie.
Bob,
Thanks for sharing what your pastor said. That is a wise thought.
Baptist Crum,
Excellent point.
Marty,
I read that book when it came out so I’m sure you are right. It was very strange that he got remarried so soon after his divorce.
A-men Jake. Although I am a WASP, while growing up in Memphis I came to know many brothers and sisters in “black churches.” The authenticity that we are all sinners saved by grace is something I truly admire. You have less of a problem. We need more men who love Jesus like Tyler Perry, who aren’t afraid to interact with the culture, taking some risks and maybe say a few things that might make people blush.
Jake,
Whose throwing stones? I’m heartbroken & disillusioned by people I looked up to. This is a forum to help us work thru all of this.
KB,
I knew Rick. Mrs. Phillips and I even went to Brook Hills for a year after a horrible experience at a church in Trussville where Mrs. Phillips was children’s minister. This truly saddens me and our church prayed for him yesterday.
What all this should do is to constantly remind us that we are all open to temptation and must be on guard in our lives at all times.
Amen David.
I’m still trying to figure out the WASP comment. What does that have to do with sin? Race should have nothing to do with living a pure life.
I think alot of it comes back to relationships, accountability, and expectations of those in “professional ministry.”
Let me explain:
How many men and women in “professional ministry” have strong relationships (non-romantic) with people in their church, or better yet on their staffs? How strong are those relationships? Are they strong enough that another person can say, “Listen brother, I’m very concerned about you, and here’s why….”
Accountability is one of those buzz words that everyone likes to use, but not many really enact. There has to be strong relationships for accountability to fulfull it’s intended goals. Without these relationships, even those who are “accountable” can be deceitful. I speak from firsthand experience.
And the “EXPECTATIONS” of those in ministry can be enormous, overwhelming, and unrealistic. We are called to be “human beings” not human doings….but yet we expect our pastors, and others in ministry to “do” everything…never paying attention to what is really going on in their heart, or asking them to at least pay attention to what is happening in their heart. Just “do it”–great for NIKE, but it’s a lousy spiritual motto.
I could write more…but I’ll wait.
Kevin,
Along with you I too am heartbroken when men and women sin. You mention that this seems to happen when people get large churches or are more in the public eye. While that may be true, there is plenty of this sexual sin going on in small churches as well. I could recount many instances of small church pastors falling into the same trap.
However, all of us are just as susceptible to these same sins. I have it within me to commit adultery, murder, and any other sin you may want to mention. When we think we’re beyond the capacity to sin in any form, I think that’s when we’re most vulnerable. I’m not saying that’s what you think, but so many Christians seem to think they would not or could not sin certain ways and look down on those who do.
Regards,
Les
Kevin B-
I’ll engage your point: How and why does God continue to use a person when they continue in willful sin? I’ve asked myself that question many, many times.
The answer that I always come back to is how scripture shows that God will use anyone, at any time, with any means, for any length of time to get His purposes accomplished, even if that person is Satan himself. So, though I’m sorrowful for all the situations that you have mentioned (and there are hundreds more besides), I know that the power, as Bob stated above, is in the Word.
Paul said that the gospel was preached by some from envy, strife and insincerely to bring additional problems for he himself, but he rejoiced that the gospel was being preached (Phil 1:15-18). It seems that the power of the message properly preached is powerful enough to overcome the fragility or outright “screwed upness” of the messenger to whom it has been entrusted.
Having said that, I think we have arrived where we are in the American context because so many churches have turned their backs on the requirements given in the scripture for how a pastor should live, ie, the requirements as listed in 1 Timothy and Titus. We have for so long fretted over the divorce issue that we’ve forgotten the rest of the list, ending up with many who simply are not qualified to serve. We cannot continue to ignore what God has said and expect to reap any different harvest than what is being thrown onto the wagon.
Phil,
Great insight as always.
Les,
I do agree with you. That is why my heart grieves. I don’t want to have this happen to me.
KB,
The other day on a blog someone was taken to task for making an observation about “black churches”. I simply meant that I had “inner knowledge” about this particular feature of a black church and wasn’t speaking from a WASP assumption about our black brothers and sisters. Or was that “word of knowledge?” 
The WASP comment was to cover my bases on being PC
And there are literally MILLIONS of faithful servants in hundreds of thousands of churches who have remained completely faithful and committed to their marriage vows, their spouses, their congregations and most importantly THEIR GOD.
Maybe we should find out the “secret” of how these men and women have maintained their integrity and have remained faithfully committed on every level.
Maybe “that’s” the question that we should be asking…don’t you think?
Why does God still use? I’d only get to guess. I don’t need to know why though. I’m glad He does.
How does God still use? People need to believe that God can use and value them in spite of their sin. For laypeople to just hear this from a minister isn’t as impacting as seeing God do it. When people think about having someone share testimonies, the ones that get the most attention are the ones with the most sin. Being able to see someone who participated in a “big” sin still follow Christ makes a huge impact. We tell people that God loves us no matter what we do, yet people need to see that from ministers also. If ministers can be seen as people God calls and not as almost perfect people, then the power of God is easier to see.
Someone said the accountability is really needed to be able to help. When the SBC came out with that number a few years ago for ministers to call to talk through problems, people had a hard time wanting to actually talk about the secret problems ministers face. (Y’all would have to tell me if that number even still exists. ) Seeing it done the second time around makes an impact of real change.
Phil makes a good point – these cases are really anomalies, even though they’re the ones that are the most publicized.
That said, I wonder if there’s something about the temptations of power, and the insulation that comes along with becoming so powerful and leading such a large ministry. I intentionally don’t attend megachurches. One of the resasons is because I think the nature of managing a huge organization almost inherently removes the leadership and the membership from the same accountability to the congregation that necessarily exists in smaller churches.
Kevin,
I think we are all grieved when this sort of thing happens. I agree with whoever said that it is not confined to mega-church pastors/staff but that their notoriety gets them publicity. I had a man in my office last week who told me that in the last three churches he attended here in this area the pastor left because of an affair, but I’m not getting any hits on my blog from people searching for their names. Today I am getting a lot of hits for “Rick Ousley,” and the only time I’ve mentioned him on my blog was to say that he spoke at our EC.
As to throwing stones….I don’t think it is a matter of throwing stones or of not having grace. Certainly God can still use people despite their failures. He does it every week with every one of us. But I also don’t think the answer is to eliminate all standards whatsoever for leadership. 1 Tim. 3 and Titus 1 must mean something. If we’re not careful we will sound like those Paul was addressing in Romans 6 – Shall we continue to sin so that grace may abound? But I fear that we may come up with a different answer than he did. Rick Ousley has been having this affair for decades. Decades! The reason it is now coming to light is not because God was working on his conscience but because the woman chose to bring it to light. Now, I’m as much for grace for him as anyone else, but I wouldn’t call him as my pastor and I wouldn’t advise our state convention to invite him to speak at our Evangelism Conference next year either. “How can we who died to sin still live in it?” still means something, right?
Kevin:
One of the ongoing ripple effects of this sort of occurrence, IMO, is that it can foster a “what’s the use…. we can’t resist” germ of an idea in folks (as in GUYS, one of which I are). But God is faithful not only to forgive when we do sin, but also to guide us through and past temptation when it arises. His promises of a way of escape, and that the devil will flee when we resist him, are true and amen.
I’ve said it before, but maybe not here. The sin starts when we give ourselves permission in our own mind to do it. If we don’t stop it there, we won’t stop the action. That’s why God said, again IMO, that were to desire a renewed mind. We can only do that by His hand.
It’s also why I harp on “repent” not just changing directions, but thinking differently. At least that’s what my Strong’s says, and I’m stickin’ to it.
I grieve for Rick and his family, and also for the members at Brook Hills. I have many friends are members there. They are shocked.
Paul-
“Am I right?”
Marty,
Right as rain.
Marty and Paul,
Great words.
I guess the reason this hits home is because this “Bama” boy and Samford Grad looked up to Rick. Brook Hills was like our Saddleback or Willowcreek. All of the Bama guys respected Rick and that church. My big brother in my Frat @ Samford was on staff there for 10+ years. I know of people whose lives were changed because of what God did there.
No stones at all. I admit I have a large hockey stick protruding out of my eye. I’m struggling with these failures. That is why these forums are so helpful to me. Instead of keeping it to myself, my friends give me different perspectives. Thanks to all of you.
Not only that but these kind of stories scare me to death. I pray you guys would hold me accountable.
But Kevin,
Also look at the millions of faithful men and women in ministry who have not experienced “moral failure.” And they do number in the millions. Look at their “secrets” for staying power: Staying in touch with God, with their families, with their churches, and with themselves.
I had this crazy thought late Saturday night as I was getting ready for bed:
Do today’s pastors really “shepherd their churches” or are they just “managing the crowds”?
Kevin,
This whole thing has really been shocking here in Birmingham, AL. Rick spoke at our church numerous times (Valleydale) and I put late 90’s Brook Hills as one of the main things that God used to get me where I am today. Without grace where would any of us be? Thanks for sharing your emotions and thoughts.
Keep this in mind: The Bible clearly states that a bishop (pastor) should be the husband of one wife. Not multiple wives like Ousley had. If the congregation would have followed the BIBLE instead of Rick Ousley, they would not be faced with the problems they are now faced with.
The Birmingham News states that Ousley will take 3 months off to deal with this ‘problem.’
Folks, it is starting to look like the man had problems in this area during his whole time of ministry at the church. This isn’t going to be fixed in three months.
Brook Hills folks, you have only yourselves to blame for taking part in Rick Ousley’s sins.
“A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife … One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)” (1 Timothy 3:2, 4, 5).
“If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly” (Titus 1:6).
“Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock” (1 Pet. 5:3).
You enabled him to continue in his wickedness by supporting him with your tithe and church attendance.
What’s Wrong With the Divorced Pastor?
Plenty.
Full Court,
Thanks for your perspective. However, I disagree with you. God used Rick whether you want to believe it or not. I will pray for him not pile on trash on him, his family and Brook Hills.
I don’t find it surprising at all. Though I’m sure we’d disagree on the particulars, religion is big money, and it is going to attract a lot of charlatans. I think it’s only natural that you will find more deceit of every kind among religious leaders, simply because so many more of them are frauds than you find among, say, optometrists or fire fighters. The more successful they are, the more likely they’ve got there by dirty dealing. The odds are stacked.
Superstition is always going to attract people looking for suckers, whether you’re talking about ghosts or angels, palm reading or biblical prophecy. I don’t think this points to a failure so much in spiritual leadership as it does the willingness of their followers to exercise critical thought. They desperately WANT to have upstanding, moral leaders, and are so are disinclined to doubt the integrity of anyone who presents the trappings of piousness. Unfortunately, most religions encourage this sort of passive acceptance, so it’s a vicious cycle.
Then there is the class that includes Haggard, some who seem to be sincerely trying to fool themselves. I don’t even know what to make of that, but I also suspect religion tends to attract more people who just ain’t quite right than other vocations, including people looking for magical solutions to impossible problems. I wonder how many times Haggard has asked God to make him straight. I’d believe both thousands and none (since I think he could be both crazy and deceitful, given some of his cynical comments about preaching).
*Very superstitious, writing on the wall…*
Full Court, can I say with as much love as possible. Your comment is about as Pharasaical (is that a word) as ANY statement I have ever read on this site! It grieves me to no end to say, dude, get right.
Charles Stanley and I have something very much in common. My x-wife when we first married came from a family that many would have considered “Southern Baptist Royalty in Memphis.” She was church secretary, used to homeschool our kids, served in Children’s church, did costumes for nearly every Chior special among many other things in the “Mega Church” where we served. Yet one night in a fit of frustration and rage, doing her “women’s bible study” on our living room sofa, she got up, threw the lesson in the fireplace, and said, “I WILL NOT CONTINUE LIVING THIS LIE!” Within 6 months she was doing drugs, staying out all night “dancing” and drinking… One overnight trip with a men’s group, and I come back to her spending all of our net worth and more, over $60 in one weekend. As a result we were left homeless…well I was homeless, I sent her and our kids to live with her mother.
Not to say I did everything perfectly as a husband, because we are all sinners…but how was her decision to not just casually, but to actively , walk away from her faith and engage in destructive behavior that resulted in destroying our marriage, my sin?
My current wife, was married to a pastor in South Arkansas. He got into porn, in a very serious way. He had an affair with a woman in the church and left my wife, and two kids. How is that her sin?
The storms of my life drove me to my knees and to cling to Jesus more tightly than ever before. Even now, my marriage now is not perfect, but God is sustaining it. I am desperate, on my knees daily for HIS help.
Personally to me, there isn’t a single man in ministry if they evaluated themselves against the standard in Timothy with sincerity, COULD stand….apart from the Grace of God.
May His grace be over all of us, because we need it.
In Christ
Andrew \o/
*laff…she spent 60,000 dollars in one weekend.
Oh well..
Wow Andrew,
I’m sorry for your pain. Thanks for sharing your heart.
I lookat Ousley’s situation and wonder:
why was he not convicted of the hypocrisy of his situation by the Holy Spirit, in that he was participating actively in his affair while on “ministry” trips?
Why did he wait until he was publicly humiliated, only confessing when Ms. Jones forced his hand?
What are the differences between 1) Ousley/Haggard, etc and 2) a pastor who recognizes his own disqualification, admits, resigns his church and seeks Godly counsel hoping for professional redemption (not a hypothetical situation) and 3) a pastor who is “caught” but quietly sent to another unsuspecting congregation (again, not hypothetical). Much I would say. 1) destroyed personal and public integrity and failed to trust in the redemption of God and viewed “ministry” more important than God, 2) recognized that personal integrity was broken but redeemable by God in God’s timing and counted honoring God more important than honoring his “ministry” 3) the church is behaving exactly like their pastor, unfaithful, lacking in integrity, dishonoring God.
We all sin, yet receive restoration. It’s when we deny we need restoration and forgiveness that we travel the path that destroys the ministries that God gifted us with. IMO, that’s what Ousley did. And humanly thinking, it makes me wonder just who I can trust to be speaking truth that they actually believe. Praise the Lord that His truth is independent of the messenger.
Now if I can just stop wanting to have my ears tickled.
Thanks Kevin, but I didn’t say all of this to glory in my sufferring, but maybe encourage somebody to get real and quit protecting their own reputation.
I told a friend recently, “My reputation be damned. It’s Jesus man.
For exegetical reasons I do not believe that divorced men should serve as pastors. If every divorced pastor committed this kind of sin, or if none of them ever did, I think my conclusions would be the same. I have come to my position not by inductive observation, but by deductive exegesis. Therefore, Ousley’s adultery does not prove anything (IMHO) about the idea of divorced pastors. Those who hold my view should resist the temptation to use this sad situation as vindication of our position. It is a tragic turn of events to be mourned, not to be marshalled in defense of anything. Let our position be judged against the Word of God.
Bart,
I agree. I didn’t even bring up his divorce.
Bill,
Thanks for sharing your perspective.
It just goes to show that no one is above the consequences of sin. What this pastor needs (I’ve never heard of him until I read this) is grace – he’ll get it from God, now we (the church) need to give it. He may never be in fulltime ministry again, but God can still use him!
Kevin,
I think I feel the sting of this like you do and for the same reasons. I grew up in Meridian, MS which is a stone trow from the Alabama line. Brook Hills was a meca for us and Rick Ousley a giant. I have wept while hearing him preach. This is truly a heartbreaking happening.
The whole thing… it’s heart breaking. I find it strange how we wonder how God can use somebody so effectively, so long who lived with this sin, as if we are without sin ourselves. Theirs got exposed. But assuming we have no sin, and Haggard and Others were the exceptions….who’s to say God didn’t use them?…God used the Ravens to feed Elijah.
One answer to the question of why so many of the big name guys fail – possibly because so much of their success was and is due to their personality. Like it or not, Western Christianity is personality driven. A dynamic personality is not evil, something to be looked down on, or a thing to be critcized in and of itself. But it does carry its own danerous traps like being attractive to other people and often others of the opposite sex. Guys like me, somewhat naturally reserved who dont’ easily allow others to get close, aren’t as exposed to some of the same temptations other men are. That doesn’t necessarily make me a better man. My personality shy and reserved pesonality carries its own negatives and handicaps. It is just that attracting women hasn’t ever been an issue so I am not going to get on my high horse about Ousley. He was presented with a temptation I have never had to face. I feel badly for his wife, his family, those who looked to him for spiritual leadership and yes, even for Rick. This also reminds us once again that God always seems to expose the sins of His people, especially those in leadership. A strong fear of the Lord might be good for all of us.
Brother Bussey,
It is sad. Fortunately it isn’t the end of the world. The kingdom will prevail, often in spite of the people in it.
I do wonder at the comment you make in the original post of growing a congregation from 30 to over 4000. I wonder if we really make too much of having a large crowd on Sunday morning as an indicator of success? When this happens I am always forced to wonder what is the mark of authentic spiritual leadership? I wonder if the need to lift up guys as success stories or ministry models placed too much pressure on a person who has to look himself in the mirror every day and either lie to himself or acknowledge what he really is inside?
If the poor, crippled, lame and blind are going to be feasting at the great banquet table, then what should I expect? The kingdom seems to be full of people who accept the invitation and less the people who exemplify Christ. Sin is sneaky, fun and immediate, the gospel is about sacrifice, discipline and the long run.
.02
One little man,
You are right it is not about numbers. But I know actual people whose lives were radically changed at Brook Hills. Now many of them are in vocational ministry.
It’ll be interesting to see if my comment shows up since none of my others have . . .
I really think it’s “ironic” how the pot calls the kettle black. Just where are all those conservative values they’re preaching ??? And yet they sit and condemn homosexuality and abortion? All of it is sin, plain and simple.
Belinda,
If a comment didn’t show up I’m sorry. Sometimes my anti-spam picks up comments that aren’t spam. I promise I never deleted any. Sorry.
You are right that it is all sin, no question about it.
My comment sounds really harsh . . . don’t know that I meant it to be as harsh as it is . . .
I’m church of Christ. Preacher and pastor aren’t the same thing. The preacher preachers; pastor/bishop/elder oversee the church. We do not have an association or anything like that. The elders are the ones that do the majority of the counseling. I think that’s a prime opportunity for situations like this (adultery) to happen.
Back to the harshness of my earlier comment . . . there’s so much of this lately and it seems to be coming primarily from the “evangelicals” . . . just puts a really bad taste in my mouth.
You asked why “God allows a man having a 25 year affair to build a church from 30 to over 4000″?
Perhaps one of the problems is that we equate a large church with being the equivalent of the blessing of God – a sign of the approval of God upon the lives of these men. Scripture seems to teach the opposite in fact.
Remember that the Lord Jesus Christ was completely “approved of God” in a way that no other man ever could be. Yet, how many followers did he have after all those years of complete faithfulness to God? … Hardly any.
Even Paul, perhaps the greatest teacher of any mortal man, wrote at the end of his life that all had forsaken him and “only the Lord” stood by him (2 Tim. 4:16, 17).
Likewise the apostle John had to watch from the outside as a church he loved dearly was taken under the sway of a “great leader” and refused to receive him (3 John 1:9).
Both of these men were faithful, but neither of them had large churches (or any churches of ‘their own’ at all). Both were chosen and approved by God, but neither of them were lauded or praised by men. At the time of their deaths, they were already being rejected by many churches of their day because of the error that had already crept in.
The Scriptures so clearly teach that true spirituality is about what is internal. Why is it then that everyone judges the spirituality of churches and men by what is external? Maybe it’s because so few bother to read the Scriptures anymore.
You asked why some faithful men have less “success” than those who lived a lie? Maybe those faithful believers are more successful than the fakes, but we just don’t know how to measure success like God does.
Again, you note that some have “bigger ministries” after their failures. But perhaps they don’t have “bigger ministries” at all, they just have larger churches, or more popular books, or simply more money.
God doesn’t judge like we do. Remember what the Lord said about the widow who gave her two pennies when all the religious leaders were casting in bags of cash? “This widow has given more than all the rest.”
Just some random thoughts. Thanks for the article.
i wonder who’ll be there to help reconcile him with God and his church. we get that he messed up… a lot, even. let’s not ask the real question: now that he’s been condemned, what’s next?
Joe,
I’m sure it will be his board of directors of his ministry. At least I hope so. I’m not condemning, I’m just disillusioned and confused.
Joel Gregory’s story is sad, but now he is effecting lives at Truett Seminary, teaching young ministers to preach. God is still using him.
[...] learning just how much it has perverted my thinking. Every little scandal, which seem to come out more and more frequently (this link covers one who preached at our state “evangelism” conference a couple of [...]
I have been thinking about a comment to this thread for a while, uncharacteristically, I hesitated to whip off a comment.
It happens that you posted this on the Feast of the Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary, while you may not be familiar with this particular Feast day; I was meditating on a quote from St. Anselm.
“Without God’s Son, nothing could exist; without Mary’s Son, nothing could be redeemed”.
In conversation with a friend, I asked him how he saw that quote, and his response was:
“God has always incorporated man with His actions.”
And I knew then what I thought of this thread; We DO participate in His plans!
No matter how fallen we are.
Kevin
Sorry I am late on this. I grieve that such a gifted man has fallen so far. I grieve for his wife and family. I grieve for those in his previous church who looked up to him. I grieve for those who have supported his evangelistic ministry. Ultimately, I believe we should all grieve because our Father in heaven is grieving also. Is He angry? I am sure he is. But, he is also merciful.
Ultimately, I don’t throw stones at him because I know that I am capable of those very sins also.
You mentioned that this episode makes you more Calvinistic each day. I would hope that the Word of God would convince you of that doctrinal position rather than the sins of man.
Thanks for your thoughts.
God Bless
Dear Brother Kevin,
Thanks for providing a place where we can talk through this.
I am thankful to the Lord for finally calling Rick out of the shadows. Sometimes you can only come to repentance after you get caught.
Paul Washer says we should not admire fruitful/successful preachers as models of faith. Their great visible success does not require great faith. The preachers who labor long in the work, see little outward success, yet continue for decades in faithfulness are the ones who must have learned prayer, faith, and perseverance.
Thanks again, Brother Kevin!
Love in Christ,
Jeff
Monk-in-Training,
That is a powerful insight. I always appreciate your thoughtful comments on this blog and others. Thanks!
In Christ,
Tim Cook
What I think is the actual problem is the assumption of
“God using a man.” I know that ministers do (and must) buy
into the mythology of being ‘instruments of God.’ When that
view of others / self is contradicted by actions and character,
an incongruity arises. But it is an incongruity of one’s thinking
- not of divine action.
A more reasonable view is that there are persons who are
especially equipped with purely natural abilities and skills and
who are especially adept at meeting the religious needs of people.
It is not primarily a issue of character. God ‘choosing’ or ‘using’
them has little, if anything, to do with their success. And if I am
wrong about this, and God does have something / everything to
do with it, then I think you are in fact committed to accepting the
amoral / immoral God of Calvin.
I have a serious question to ask that pops up every time a superstar gets busted: Why can’t they simply say, as David did, that they have sinned against God first and foremost? Why do they, or some of their apologists, use terms like “moral and spiritual indiscretion’, ‘moral failure’, etc.
I have to confess when I hear these terms bandied about, I have difficulty believing that real confession is being made. If the term ’sin’ is good enough for a sermon, it ought to be good enough for confession.
Just a question I struggle with while at the same time rejoicing that God does not require precision in my words…
Luke 22:27
Simon, Simon satan Has asked to sift you (plural…meaning all disciples) like wheat. But I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back strengthen your brothers.
Is it not interesting to note that Jesus predicts Simon’s failure. Yet He tell Simon that once he returned…he will have a job to do? In essence, his ministry explodes after this incident…after the ressurrection.
People(including pastors) fall because all sin as consequences. Even sin that remain hidden has consequences (Psalms 32)
ALL sin has consequences:
pride…gluttony…greed…envy…sloth…lust…malice…etc
For the believer these can be extreme consequences like found in I Corinthians 5:5…for the unbeliever…hell
Why does God choose to use someone after they have fallen?
We ask the wrong question. There are better questions.
Why would God use any of us for his purposes?
Why does God deliver the sinner or the saint from the full consequences of sin?
Maybe the parable of Luke 7 gives us some insight
“Therefore I tell you, her MANY sins have been forgiven, that’s why she loved much. But the one who is forgiven little loves little”
Could it be that God sometimes restores fallen pastors because they understand grace, ministry, purpose, God, marriage, family, church etc like they did not before thier sin was exposed?
Numbers, size, scope of influence does not necessarily indicate God’s favor..but sometimes it does.
This does not malign or diminish the multitudes of pastors that labor in obscurity, fidelity, and integrity…It shines great light on them. I also believe that heaven has great reward waiting for them. Nevertheless…those who “labor hard” and “never leave home” must be very careful…they may be not be the prodigal son…they can become the “elder brother”
Rodney Sprayberry
Kevin,
I do think Rodney has something worth hearing in his comment. No one of us would doubt that genuine brokenness is essential for recovery fully but, having acknowledged that fact, it is true that the story of the prodigal teaches a second failure. From that story it would appear that the only thing worse than what was done by the prodigal boy was the pride in the elder brother that he never had and deserved something more because of his not having done it.
Proverbs 6 indicates that while moral sins are certainly bad, a proud look may be the number one bad. This is difficult and I guess it’s why Paul said “judge nothing until that day when hidden things like motives and purposes will be brought into the light.” [1 Corinthians 4]
For a lot of clear understanding we’ll just have to wait until that day. Some of us may not even know our own heart that well until then.
I find it curious that no one else has suggested the possibility that some of these folks are just plain disingenuous. And now that I think about it, I *never* hear that discussion within Chrisian circles (excluding demonisation of competing sects). Charlatans exist in every vocation, why is it taboo look critically at the motivations of people who would present themselves as religious authorities? Or do I have a misconception here?
I guess I’m a bit off-topic, since the OP was about sexual indiscretion, not about general two-facedness. I’m certainly much more forgiving of such things. We can talk about nobility and the origin of the Universe and number of other refined topics, but we’ve only been “human” for maybe a few hudred thousand years. That is, we’ve only had that thin skin of civility wrapped around the howling beast that makes up most of what we are for a vanishingly tiny portion of our ancestral history. We like to think that makes us special, makes us “moral creatures”. but that’s just something we tell ourselves to make our prefrontal cotrex feel better. We’re no more moral creatures than a conductor is a train.
I’m not giving them a pass, I’m just saying I am not going hold matters of the heart against them. The best conductor in the world can only stop a train so fast. Now, the raging hypocrisy that usually accompanies these scandals, that’s perfectly fair game!
I think you have a valid point Geekwad. It possible that some pastors are “charlaltans” Actually that is a pretty good definition of hypocrisy (Greek Theater word meaning to “play a role”) . If so time and fruit bear that out….
But, most are not. They genuinely believe that they are called by God to lead his church. Most of the pastors that I have met are people of integrity and fidelity.
Theologically it is easier to divide pastors/believers into authentic/charlatan catagories. The only problem is that if the Bible is to be believed and trusted, and church history is to be believed…many people used in Kingdom work (God’s view of Kingdom success is different than the world’s view) are (have been) very human, fallible, and sinful. Redemption (embracing Christ’s substitutionary death on the cross) occurs at salvation but sanctification (becoming like Jesus) is a life-long process.
Except for Jesus who, if the Bible is to be believed, was sinless…we all have to struggle with sin in our lives…there is victory over “certain sins” in every believers live…but the sin nature still raises it’s ugly head….
The question for many here is not whether or not Rick is a charlatan…as I said time and fruit bear that out
The question is… if he is the real deal…how could something like this happen?
As we struggle with that…our response…is a window into our own souls…which is a total different subject.
Rodney Sprayberry
Thanks, RMS, it took me a few tried but I finally caught on to where I had missed the bus. Its tricky having these sorts of conversations. Given my beliefs, the question “if he is the real deal…how could something like this happen?” is a no-brainer. However, my answer to that question wouldn’t really lend itself to fruitful conversation, so I sort of have to inhabit the periphery of the issue where common ground can be found. Usually it comes down to “human nature” — an ironic term since it is usually our most base and primitive behaviour that is called such.
I should add that I don’t really see the authentic/charlatan distinction as black and white I can imagine a religious leader who doesn’t believe any of the supernatural elements, but sees them as metaphors he can use to help people (rather than exploit them as I am often complaining can happen). I probably wouldn’t consider such a man a charlatan, but I would argue with his methods. I can also imagine someone who THINKS they are preaching Christianity, but in fact is blinded by some aspect of their own self they have not come to terms with, they ending up preaching something entirely different. (Phelps comes to mind here.) So I guess I am including more than pure deceit.
I am just disappointed that it should be found surprising that religious people can be fallable or downright malevolent. The point above about these people becoming successful more on the basis of their personality than their moral nature is spot-on. It’s show biz.
At the same time, I recognise that a true thing is true no matter who says it. Perhaps the great surprise and grief comes from people wanting avatars rather than insightful thought; people are inspired by the speaker rather than the speech. If true, that cannot be a good thing…
Geekwad,
If the supernatural exists as I believe it does and if the Bible is a authentic record of God’s dealing with humanity, then those who claim to share the gospel walk a thin line.
We are human but carry a divine message. If this is true…ministers should proceed with great fear and trembling…sometimes we don’t and we pay a price.
It is not suprising to find that their are religious peolple who are fallible or downright malevolent…
What should be surprising is that God (if He exists as revealed in Jesus and the Bible) would choose to use fallible human beings to help promote his purposes on this earth…that is earth shattering
The problem is that religious people by our nature can be too trusting (the whole “not by faith but by sight” thing) and religious leaders sometimes forget that the message may be divine…but they are not.
Yet God still uses imperfect people in amazing ways. Maybe that is why CS Lewis (I think) said that if God only worked with good He would run out of material!
As for me (I pastor a church in NE Texas) transparency, authenticity, and accountibility help me to keep my feet on the ground. I also have several close friends who know (and remind me) that I am fallible…and yet they love me anyway.
In my first pastorate…my life-long struggle with secret sin came out to my family…that church did not know it but God removed me and took me to a much larger church where I served on staff in an associate role. He put people in my life that loved me and modeled grace and forgiveness. He healed me,my marriage, and my ministry. He made me a better minister than before my sin came to light! I am now have returned to the same church I left back then…they know my story. They love me (warts and all) anyway. Together we are discovering God’s will for this church together.
There is something about that which keeps sinful attitudes and actions at bay. There is something about that which keeps me grounded in God and the divine resources He provides.
Grace changes everything. But grace presumes guilt. Acknowledging sin renders it powerless. Hiding it gives it power.
I understand God , grace, redemption, restoration, forgiveness, healing and hope like I never dreamed… but it been a long painful journey
It is hard to proclaim the gospel unless you have experienced the effects of the gospel.
Some may try. Some may even look successful. Some may even lose sight of what the Gospel means in their lives. But, sooner or later…we are are reminded…when sin comes crashing in…and we know deep down in our guts…without the Gospel/Jesus/Holy Spirit we are all toast!
That leaves no room for pride. or self-sufficiency…just dependence
Rodney Sprayberry
Rodney,
Thanks for being transparent and sharing your heart. It is great to know that God forgives all of us.
Though I disagree with how you arrived at it, RMS, I agree quite closely with your analysis. I especially like your CS Lewis quote, and very strongly agree that religious people need to be more critical. Doubt is a *good* thing. Unfortunately, faith is pretty much the diametric opposite of doubt. I find it hard to imagine a church that fosters doubt. I agree that, “Acknowledging sin renders it powerless. Hiding it gives it power,” though I would replace a word or two with their atheistic equivalent.
I even choose to believe in a form of redemption (if I understand correctly; that anyone can be reformed, in a manner of speaking) despite that I know evidence seems to say it is not true.
I am very impressed with your humility (which I value greatly but struggle to keep hold of) and your manner. I am sure that you are a positive force in your community. I see that you share a lot of truth and experience. I just wish you were more interested in why true things are true, so that you too would reject “God” as an unsatisfactory answer.
Another belief I choose to hold is that all things can be understood. God cannot be understood. Just like saying “God made the Earth in seven days,” does nothing to aid our understanding of geology, saying “God makes bad people do good things” does not provide any insight into human behaviour. There are answers to these questions beyond the opaque labels we each slap on them, very important answers that could change the world, and if anyone is equipped to help find those answers, it’s someone like you.
(I suppose that is the atheistic equivalent of saying, “I’ll pray that you find Jesus.” Sorry about that.)
We learn a lot when we look back to see how Elijah was fed at the brook by Ravens which were unclean animals in the scripture.
But the primary lesson is this…Thankfully God can and often does use the unclean to sustain the life of those who follow Him.
Thanks Kevin…no one has to convince me of the destructive nature of sin .I have experienced it. But I have also experienced grace and grace changed me. Your blog is “titled confessions of a recovering pharisee” A pharisee believed that sin management made one right in God’s sight. I know that sin management is just a band aid…we need total transfomation which can only be provided by grace…
Geekwad
I enjoy conversing with you but I want to be careful not to hijack this post. email me sometime and we can exchange ideas. My emal address is rmsprayberry@juno.com or if you have a blog…I will be glad to go there.
Be careful my friend. It takes just as much faith to believe God does exist…than to believe that He does not. Because we are imcomplete in our understanding of God does make the reality of God any less true (if He exists) anymore than the limited understanding of the processes of life negates the fact that life exists.
My biblical understanding of God is that as humans we are image bearers. That is a theological idea that is rich with deep meaning but for the sake of discussion we were created in his image as rational, volitional, emotional, and relational beings…Existence can be experienced and analyzed in these ways. We are limited (in perspective) by our humanity but God created the world in such a way that it can be observed and understood to some extent…the same is true about God….in fact the Bible commands us to seek to know God
If He was completely unapproachable and unknowable….that does not make a lot of sense does it?
One thing you and I do agree upon is this…
what is true is true…whether you (or I) believe it or not.
Two intelligent individuals can look are at the complexity of the genome
One says it is evidence that God exist
The other says it is evidence God does not exist
Who is biased? Who is not? Who has pressuppositions?
Maybe they both do. The question is who is closest to the truth.
You say the scientst
I say the theologian
Let’s dialogue
Rodney Sprayberry
Rodney,
Don’t worry about hijacking. Everyone who comes here knows that doesn’t bother me. I want this blog to be a place to be real and transparent and to learn from one another.
Geekwad….one last thing
I do not want faith that fosters doubt…that negates any reason to believe. But I do question any person/leader religion that does not acknowlege/foster “mystery”
Vibrant faith does not mean that I have the answer (real or imagined) for every hard question. Vibrant Faith means I cling to the truth that the answers exist…even in the midst of the hard questions.
Vibrant faith is based on some (quite a bit actually) evidence. Vibrate faith cultivates questions but also uncovers answers..answers that have been revealed by a loving Creator/Redeemer to any human heart willing to truly be openminded.
Rodney Sprayberry
Thanks Kevin…today is the first time I have stopped by. I have been on Wade’s blog…but not here. I will be back
Rodney Sprayberry
It’s like the man said: dubito, ergo cogito. I doubt, therefore I think.
I’m bad for wandering far from Kevin’s proposed topics, but no matter how hard I try no one ever complains. Thanks for your thoughts on “vibrant faith”, I have not had heard that perspective before.
I do not agree that it takes “as much” faith to disbelieve in God (though I’m not presently prepared it doesn’t require any). I presume it does not take a great exertion of faith on your part to disbelieve in any of the world’s other currently worshipped gods. You’re an atheist where Hinduism is concerned, but I’d bet a nickel you don’t spend a minute a year worried about Hindu hell. (Well, if there was one.) If it takes as much faith to disbelieve in one Christian god as it does to believe in Him, why it must take a whole pewload of additional faith to disbelieve in all those eastern gods! If only all that faith wasted on disbelieving in Shintoism could be harnessed, we could probably heal a stadium full of lepers.
Getting silly, but its something of a silly endever, to try to quantify faith. Does it take twice as much faith to believe that four angels can dance on the head of a pin as it does one pair? What are the limits of human faith? What’s the most unlikely thing anyone’s ever believed?
For the record, I don’t see the genome as an argument for or against God. I can see no argument at all for or against God, due to the way He is defined. Without any rational way to come to a decision, I have to fall back on heuristics. In this case, I avoid the needless multiplication of entities (Occam’s razor) and therefore come to the tentative conclusion that there isn’t a Christian God, since there is no observation that requires there to be one. That’s essentially why I think it requires less faith to disbelieve.
Of course, I wouldn’t be any sort of a scientist if I wasn’t willing to amend my conclusions in light of new evidence, should it arrive. That, I think, is the core difference between the scientific worldview, and the theological one. Christianity desires a fundamentally static universe. So it was, so it is, so it ever shall be. Science finds a fundamentally dynamic one. It’s not like it used to be and it never will be again. The religious mind wants certainty, absolutes. Its almost as though it doesn’t even matter if its true or not, it is enough to believe something, anything, with complete certainty. The scientific mind denies that true certainty can even exist, that all we can do is iteratively improve our understanding, approaching certainty asymptotically.
(Insert standard generalisation boilerplate: I acknowledge that there are dogmatic scientists and progressive clergy.)
How can theology provide any real answers when it starts from the desired conclusion and works backwards? Isn’t that just a form of wishful thinking? Probably this is one of those questions where the answer would be obvious if I could step into your worldview, but I can’t see it.
[...] recent events of pastors and spiritual leaders falling in public has been very disillusioning for me. After a [...]
Kevin,
My first prayer this morning was for you.
Remember that “God loves you more than He loves your ministry.”
Geekwad
In the search for the truth, what designates/determines evidence for or against? Who gets to have the authoritative word on the matter theologians, scientists, believers, non believers? What tools are infallible…logic, observation, intuition, emotion?
Human perspective is limited…if not flawed. but to say that all theology works backwards from a desired conclusion to specific answers… is unfair. Some theology may. But what about other worldviews like Darwinism or Atheism are they not sometimes guilty as well?
There is much all perspectives must take on faith (or maybe assumption…because is outside the realm of human observation) but in every world view there should be honest tweaking going on based on observable data. You and I would not hold our world views (or core beliefs) if we did not think there was evidence for the validity of them.
My assumption/bias/presupposition is that beyond the observable data…God exists.
There is evidence to support my belief…observable and beyond…but ultimately it boils down to revelation…God has chosen to reveal himself. Divine revelation is the cosmic wild card of the Christian world view. Granted, it is hard to argue for/against such a notion. I guess it is also possible that I want/need God to exist so I embrace the idea God. But, what if my need/want for God is place there by….God? In the arena of ideas…it is a reasonable assumption that God can exist.
If the Bible is an accurate record of God’s interaction with humanity and we were created as rational, relational, volitional, and emotional creatures then followers/worshippers have a divine mandate to leave their comfort zone…wrestle with the complexities of life, death, pain, suffering, and belief to make a difference in this world…all within the context of faith that God exists and He is loving and good
There are many scientists, statesmen, politicians, activists, doctors, poets, writers, and thinkers who have held a Judeo Christian worldview (There were also many people in Germany that believed Hitler was a savior…so many people can still be wrong!)
They often questioned the status quo.
They faced the negative effects institutionalized religion.
They fought against ignorance and institutionalized evil (even in their religious establishments)
But, they did so BECAUSE they believed that being an image bearer meant that they were in explore and impact their world as rational/volitional/emotional/relational beings.
Human beings have great capacity for good but also great capacity for self deception, self-promotion, and self delusion and ultimately…evil. That is not limited to those with only a Judeo Christian mindset…it the price of being human. It is also something we all must be aware and be willing to face. I am not sure any world view offers a complete understanding/explanation of human behavior/ existence…but obviously I believe that Christianity comes pretty darn close
If the Bible is not true and God does not exist…The “supposed” teachings of Jesus have made millions of people better human beings (the crusades and slavery acknowledged )
Christianity has not always represented God/Jesus well. In fact at times we have done piss poor job. I will not defend those who do or promote evil in the name of God (Christian or not)
But Jesus (or the idea of Him…or his teachings) has made a difference in this world. His teachings may be laughed at, argued with, and ignored but they cannot be denied because some have applied them and they have produce good.
The question is why?
But for the grace of God go I…
As always, I find your views refreshing. You must be getting tired of my typecasting you as an apocalypse-wishing, this-life-hating reality denier. I wonder why your views seem so much at odds with how I experience Christianity “as she is spoken” in the wild. I suppose the extreme examples stand out in my memory more prominently than the more common moderate ones. But unfortunately, the extreme elements seem to wield a disproportionate clout somehow.
I am also curious about the benefits of false religion. Let us pretend we are talking about some popular religion that no one here holds. The suggestion seems to be that deceit can bring greater happiness than unvarnished reality, and that unexposed falsehoods can expose the truth. It doesn’t sit well with me — I’d rather be unhappy with the truth than happy with a lie, if I were given the choice — but that’s not an argument. I am willing to accept that false religion CAN have a net benefit. Also, that humans CAN make communism work on a large scale, that the free market CAN solve all the world’s ills, etc. I see these things as unlikely, and I worry about the downside of the needless accretion of power that organised religions almost inevitably seem to bring with them.
Unfortunately, I have only my own “anecdotal” experience to draw on. Have you ever heard of someone trying to study this before?
What is the “Darwin worldview”? How does it start from the conclusion? Darwin himself started from observation and worked forward. Necessarily so, since the conclusion he came to had never been conceived before. His notes show the development of his theory in response to new data he discovered and received.
Geekwad,
Maybe you haven’t had an encounter with Jesus. Lots of people get religion or go to church. What Rodney, myself and others have is a “relationship” with Jesus Christ. He has radically changed our lives. He met us where we are at. I’m grateful for His Grace and Mercy. I’m grateful that I have His power living in me called the Holy Spirit. The moment I asked Jesus to become the leader of my life He took control. Sometimes I try to take back over and that is when I sin. But the good news is Jesus forgives me and when I turn from my sins He takes back over.
Hmmm…
the benfits of false religion?
That is an interesting take on the matter…religion presupposes something divine or at least supernatural (in most cases). So maybe it is more accurate to say that all religions express some truth in them.. that is if God…the divine…the supernatural exists!
So maybe the phrase should be “misguided/missapplied/misunderstood religious knowlege/experience” The problem with all of this is that most claim to offer truth. If there is objective/absolute truth…than “false religion” no matter how much merit it may have…leads away from truth (which cannot be good…in the long run anyway)
As Kevin just commented…The major difference between Christianity and other religions is that truth is found in the context of a relationship (With God through Jesus). Truth is not an abstract idea. It is a person (Jesus did say…I am the way, truth, and life). It is not just a system of belief or a moral code.
Much of what is touted as Christianity in the modern world is a system of belief/moral code…If I am honest with you (from my perspective) that is as much false religion as I believe other religions to be.
I’m not sure I follow, Rodney. You seemed to be saying that Jesus is good even if he doesn’t exist, because the idea of Jesus has caused so much good. Then you seem to be saying that if Jesus does not exist, following him would be bad, because you will never find the truth. Though good is good and everything, I agree that the long term consequences of happy ignorance probably do not pay. But then again, wisdom is not known for bringing happiness. I’ve been known to wish I was stupid ["stupider", surely?] and happy in my lower times.
I’m not surprised one bit.
FYI, Clinton confessed to his church in 1998 and repented as reported by Baptist Press – http://bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=25273
That means no more Clinton infidelity comments or jokes, right?
Mike,
Thanks for the link. I will address that tomorrow.
[...] Yesterday someone named Mike posted the following on my post called I don’t get it. [...]
Kevin,
I just read through this entire thread with a 2 ton weight upon my heart and I’m diligently trying not to let the weight hijack my mind. Debating Mormonism only provides symptomatic relief for short intervals.
My family of five were long-time members of Brook Hills. (over a decade-almost 14 years)Keith and I have three teenagers that are “saved” (though I detest that simplistic and trite word) All three and of course Keith too, were baptized by Rick.
Our eldest Kara, will be a senior next year and is 6 months shy of 18. Well before this dark era of BrookHills she has struggled with faith. What exactly it is and what exactly Paul meant in Romans.
When Kara was in the 2nd grade she sat down with Rick and asked him if Judas was in Hell? She asked Rick if wondering why there were no female disciples made her a feminist? She couldn’t quite reconcile that Christ would allow females to let the 12 know “He’s Alive!” but yet, they couldn’t be positioned as leaders?
We began to see over the years that the message was being lost inside and it was all about the show. I’ll refrain from airing dirty laundry because my previous statement is my personal perception of my reality.
However, I would like to give Kara your email address and have her email you. She thinks waaaay outside the box even without all of this bleakness.
I think a dialogue with you would be beneficial for Kara because of your style and she needs that “pastoral seal” that she can’t get from us. Yet, she needs to know that her encounters are still very real and valid.
Anyway, post a reply when you can. I would appreciate it.
Thanks,
Kimberly Anderson
Helena, Alabama
Kimberly,
My email is bamabusman@yahoo.com
I’d be glad to help in anyway.
Thank you so much Kevin. I’ll give it to her tomorrow. Knowing her, she’ll ponder, analyze, and think for a few days before emailing.
She plans on majoring in World History/World Literature in college. I saw on the blog somewhere that you are a Samford grad. She won’t even consider Samford but Azusa Pacific ranks high on her list. Go figure? As UAB alum, we’re trying to point her in that direction.
Thanks again,
Kimberly
A murderer and a prostitute are much the same, prostitutes has abortions, and God hates it. How does so many women think that child of theirs will forgive them their sin of chrushing their head on the knife and tearing out their heart. Save babies – stay moral. It is not a human need to kill people so do not defend it as that. Birth can be a pleasure and not pain.
Beware of false teachers, means they are alive and in the church preaching and fishing where they should´nt. Dead fish stinks. Sin and death burns together. These false teasers mock God. Remember the boys that shouted to the prophet up with you bald man, up with you. And a bear tore many of them, If mocking a prophet gets that punishment how much worse will happen to the one mocking of God by adultery. There were no Adam, Eve and the midwife. God did not create that.