[From Daily Herald]
Mormon church President Gordon Hinckley defended the church’s central text, the Book of Mormon, as a valid account of Christ’s dealings with ancient Americans. Mormons believe church founder Joseph Smith translated the text from a set of gold plates delivered to him by an angel. He did this at the cult’s biannual conference in Salt Lake City.
He then offered followers his testimony of faith, defending the church’s central text, the Book of Mormon, as a valid account of Christ’s dealings with ancient Americans. LDS Church members believe church founder Joseph Smith translated the text from a set of gold plates delivered to him by an angel.
“This is all recorded in detail in the Book of Mormon,” Hinckley said. “I would think that every Christian would welcome this second witness of the reality of Jesus Christ. Strangely, they do not.”
Read about it here.
[From me]
I would welcome it if it were really from Jesus. But a the teachings of the Mormons are lies. The teachings of the LDS contradict the Bible. Jesus came to offer eternal life as a gift. The Mormons teach you have to work your way to heaven. They teach one must accept Christ’s atonement by repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and obeying all of the commandments.
Mormon prophet, Joseph Smith, was arrested and convicted in New York and was found guilty of being a con-artist, an impostor — he was a necromancer and a charlatan. This conviction was four years before he published the Book of Mormon! Court documents prove he was a convicted criminal. If he were really a prophet then why didn’t all of his prophecies come to pass. In the Old Testament if a so called prophet failed to produce they were put to death.
- Mormons doctrine teaches that God the father had sex with Mary.
- They also teach Jesus got married to Mary and Martha and had children.
- Their doctrine teaches that everyone can become gods.
- They teach Jesus paid for all our sins when He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane, not just on the cross.
- They teach Baptism for the dead, This is a practice of baptizing each other in place of non-Mormons who are now dead. Their belief is that in the afterlife, the “newly baptized” person will be able to enter into a higher level of Mormon heaven.
- They accept the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. But who decides who translates it correctly.
- They believe the Book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible.
- They teach Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers.
- The Latter Day Saints teach the doctrine of universal salvation and that there is no eternal hell except for those who will not progress. Hell only applies to those who leave Mormonism or will not become Mormon in the next life.
- They believe God used to be a man on another planet.
- They teach the trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. “That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man.”
- The true gospel was lost from the earth. Mormonism is its restoration.
- They teach there is no salvation outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
- They teach prophets today, the same as in the Old Testament. (if this is the case how come they don’t do to prophets what they did in the Old Testament?)
- They teach Jesus’ sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins. (well how do they explain the thief on the cross?)
- They Teach good works are necessary for salvation.
- The book of Mormon contains a quote from Shakespeare – 1 Nephi 1:14b
They use “Christian” lingo but make no mistake about it they are not Christians. They are a false teachers that are leading people to hell. They may be nice and moral people. They may mean well. Most of them are good people but being good isn’t good enough. Salvation only comes from a relationship with Jesus Christ. We must repent of our sins and follow Him. There is nothing we can do to earn salvation it comes from Grace alone.
Did I mention that I love Mormons!
What do you think?
I know Kevin gets flak for not accepting Mormons as Christians, but I truly do believe that he loves and wants to be open and accepting of them. One can disagree with someone theologically, and still hold that person in personally high regard.
There can be all sorts of debates about who and what Mormons are, but Orthodox, Christians they simply are not. All Christian denominations understand Christ and the Trinity in basically the same way since the Council of Nicea. Those who do not, are not Orthodox Christians. If more Christians understood the underpinnings of their Faith, they would be less susceptible to what I term modern Mystery Religions.
Having said that, I sincerely belive that God hears the slightest cry of saving faith, and He alone determines access to Heaven.
Do Mormons go to Heaven?
Only God knows, but I suspect many do. Why He even lets in some Episcopalians and Baptists!
Being a Mormon is the ultimate man’s religion, and obviously founded by a man.
First, you get to ride your bicycle all over the place for two years, and, I hear, those black tie bearing, bicycle riding, helmet wearing boys are quite popular with the ladies.
Second, you get to be God over your own universe. Man, that’s better than being Captain Kirk!
Finally, you get to have sexual relations with as many women as you want, for all eternity, so you can populate your own universe.
Bicycles. Power. Sex. It is the ultimate man’s religion. Its almost like they walked into a store and picked out their own customized program.
I did a bit of reading about the Council of Nicea last night. Fascinating stuff! Some very interesting ideas got thrown away, though I’m not sure why yet. Before that, I understand there was wide disagreement over whether Jesus was more like Man (a creation) who became godly, or more like God (”begotten, not made”) who became, err, manly. And that’s just one issue of many.
Is there a great difference between a bunch of disagreeing religious leaders coming together and hammering out a political compromise they can all (except three, iirc) rally behind, and custom-fitting a religion to individual taste?
Question…if Romney becomes President, does that mean he will have a Presidential seal on his holy underwear? Just wondering…
GW,
You are correct in saying there was strong disagreement, but I am not so certain it was wide spread.
The Arian conflict was contained primarily within the Patriarchate of Alexandria in Egypt.
The reason the Creedal Statement ended up with only three objectors is that there really was wide ranging understanding in the Church as a whole as to the Nature of Christ. Yes, the deliberations of Holy Mother Church have at times been somewhat less than worthy, however we do believe that the Holy Spirit does guide us in consensus.
Perhaps a thread on the Creed itself would be fun to explore. I don’t know many Baptists that understand it, or are even aware of it, though their Church accepts it as normative.
So the difference is that the Council was divinely inspired, and Smith was not? I suppose that is simply a matter of faith?
Geekwad,
The difference is truth. Find one error in what Jesus said. He lived and died and rose again. There were hundreds of witnesses. In the Old Testament if a prophet prophesied and it did not come to pass they were considered a “false” prophet and they were put to death. Joseph Smith was a false prophet. No reputable theologian or archaeologist believes the Book of Mormon is as old as the LDS claim.
Brother Kev,
I don’t know this one way or the other, but I was involved in some discussions a few years back with some preacher friends of mine about the future of the LDS. A couple of the guys believed that over time the LDS is moving towards Christian orthodoxy among rank and file members. What prompted the discussion is that several area youth pastors were having LDS students attend events. When asked to describe their faith the students were giving satisfactory descriptions of saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
Perhaps the doctrine from Salt Lake City is as described in The GodMakers. Our discussion centered on the idea that we weren’t meeting regular LDS folks who really believed that way. Maybe given another 50 years, the rank and file LDS will be regular evangelicals? I wonder if we are seeing another example of leadership being out of touch with membership?
Now I have visited one of the temple “open houses” before the building was dedicated. It seemed like the tour guide was closer to what The GodMakers described. However, for the modern LDS member, it seems like the only fault I can find with them is a dedication to family that seems to border on worship. However, this familiolatry is not much different from the things I hear preached in the pulpits of most Baptist churches I’ve been in either. My hunch is that the LDS church is creeping towards orthodoxy.
One Little Man,
I don’t see them creeping towards orthodoxy until they reject their teachings and accept the Bible as “the” book and Salvation only through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ alone. No works and no baptism of dead folks, etc…
Their teachings are lies from Satan.
GW, you ask a good question about the Council of Nicaea. I think it is one worth asking. It is a matter of faith, but it has some historicity behind it. As MIT has already noted, us baptists are bad historians and generally tried to avoid things that appeared to be religious, ritualistic, or Catholic. So, I may misstate some things here, but I seem to recall that the books of the OT are the same as what was generally accepted for centuries by rabbinical teaching. The books of the NT ultimately canonized also had general acceptance and were found to be internally consistent. Could there be more? Could there have been overinclusion? Great questions and ones that most orthodox Christians aren’t willing to ask, but I think it boils down to faith that God preserved, through imperfect humans, His word.
Geekwad,
It did take a while for Christianity to come to terms with what Jesus revealed. Some wanted to emphasize His deity to the exclusion of His humanity (this had gnostic influence as the material/physical was considered evil). Others wanted to emphasize Jesus’ humanity and exclude His deity, or say that deity or Christ status was given to Him at His baptism. Just like Paul had to spend several years re-learning his Jewish mindset in light of Christ, so the whole Church did as well. The heresies of the day forced the Church to firmly establish what it did believe. Nicea and other councils were not creating theology, but affirming it and denying others. They firmly established the orthodox belief that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. Both were necessary aspects for Jesus to fulfill His role as Messiah. How it all works out is still somewhat a mystery–but the truth is still very clearly presented in Scripture.
New Testament writings had to meet 3 primary tests.
1. Apostolic Connection–was it written by an apostle or by someone closely related to one (Luke or Matthew). Many they knew, like the Gospel of Thomas or Mary Magdalene were written as pseudonyms a couple centuries later.
2. Strong/Correct Theology–is it true to the life of Christ and His teachings. Does it contain really bizarre stuff like gnostic teaching (G-o-Thomas), that women must become men to be saved (Thomas), or giant talking crosses that come out of the tomb, etc. The Book of Hebrews came in this category–they could not identify its author (though it was associated with Paul), its theology was so strong and so sound, and so powerful that it was included.
3. Widespread Church Acceptance–not just in isolated pockets or by one group. Many competing groups (Alexandria & Antioch) could produce “writings” to support their position–but no one else bought it.
As to Mormonism–I just posted something on the Mormon Church membership post. There is good reason to reject this “prophet”. It is truly a cult–with many good people, but a deception none the less.
Pursuing Answers to Questions of Faith & Life,
Kelly
P.S.–I prefer the NAMB video from 1998, “The Mormon Puzzle”, to “The Godmakers”. Godmakers came across insulting, even to me.
GW,
Brian and Kelly have great responses about the Council of Nicaea (which, btw was a gathering similar to the one described in Acts 15:4-22).
We believe that what the Church really did was a “discovery” process of what was already considered Orthodox in the Christian world of the time, and then wrapped it up in a nice little Creed to help people understand the Nature of Christ.
You mentioned faith in your question, yes there is an element of faith, naturally, since this is a religion, after all, and Kevin rightly says the council was about Jesus, and understanding Him.
I know that it may seem the same, but, again, as Br. Kevin points out, the LDS materials are relatively new and limited in scope, while the materials available the Ecumenical Council were quite extensive and covered a great deal of time.
The witness of the early Church and life of Christ Himself was the basis of the faith of the Bishops, compared to what I consider to be a very limited book of dubious historicity.
That being said, faith is something that can never be proven, however love can. That is the direction I try and fail in, and hopefully some will ask the reason for that love.
onelittleman,
I’ve never heard that Mormons are creeping towards orthodoxy (making steps towards mainstream Christianity). That’s interesting. However, I have heard that Lutherans and Anglicans are creeping closer to the Catholic Church. Commnion between those churches may be possible considering a compromise could be easily made if each gives in a little. In order for Mormons to become part of “mainstream Christianity” – they’d have to give up a HECKUVA LOT OF BELIEFS.
But, back to what I said a few days ago, I’m not convinced that the average Mormon knows the spooky and frankly kooky specifics of their religion. There may very well be a good many of young Mormons whose beliefs are essentially identical to those of a young evangelical Christian.
My next-door neighbors growing up were Mormons (who eventually migrated to Utah). They were very devout and knew my dad was a Baptist minister. Their little girls often antagonized my sister by telling her that they go to the TRUE CHURCH. She would aggravate them right back by popping open a cold Coke full of that evil caffeine….
Is it possible for some Mormons to be believers? Yes, if they accept the Jesus of the Bible. But their teachings are far from Christian. As a pastor I feel it is my obligation to warn people about this false religion.
Geekwad
Just Curious
As you have been reading about the Council of Nicea…what sources/authors are you reading from?
Rodney
Brother Big Daddy,
In the conversations I was part of, there was no suggestion that LDS leadership was making any move towards orthodoxy. One of the more cynical members of the discussion phrased it like this: “Maybe after years of trying to pass themselves off as regular Christians, LDS rank and file membership has become Christians?” I think his point was that years of imitation had led some members of the LDS church to faith in Christ, sort of on accident.
The more I have reflected on that idea, I have become convinced that the average LDS member doesn’t believe or practice the less orthodox positions.
I apologize for any confusion I may have caused. I do not believe that the LDS leadership is abandoning their historic positions. I do believe that the average LDS member who is not participating in temple worship may well end up being Christians on accident. For instance, there are many sbc leaders who have no credibility or influence on our church or faith or practice. It is like how every summer, the convention unfailingly passes some peculiar resolution that I have to try and explain to the people I work with. I do not believe in historic LDS teachings, but I do suspect (note that I am not certain or dogmatic about this suspicion) that many (certainly not most or all) LDS members are creeping, slouching or otherwise falling towards orthodoxy (not to say that they have arrived at an orthodox Christian system of belief). Likewise, I am terrified at the kooky beliefs that are epidemic in my sunday school class.
Kevin,
You know I agree with your statements regarding the Mormon religion and I understand the audience on this blog. I also know how you will recieve this because the Spirit will bear witness that it’s from a brother who is also in love with Jesus. However this blog entry troubles me a little.
From one recovering Pharisee to another let me ask, will we ever hope to love a single person to Jesus by taking HIS marvelous light, and focusing it so sharply until it cuts like a laser?
You are so correct in your thoughts, but the delivery seems a little harsh and if you had a Mormon who was a little curious, they’re probably gone now.
Jesus exposed truth to the woman at the well not by immediately putting her on the defensive. He built a relationship interacting with her. Then He asked her to go get her husband. When she responded I have no husband, Christ’s truthful insightful response was recieved because He established a relationship doing something uncommon, which was engaging her on a personal level.
Whether we are talking to Mormon’s, Jehovah Witnesses, Islamic Fundementalists, we need to remember all they know is what they know. There is a need for Jesus that all men have, and these folks think what they are doing will meet their need. We know it’s not good, but they don’t.
For instance, you could say to a kid with a little sucker, “Get rid of that thing, it’s going to cause your teeth to rot! I got some liver and onions. This is good for you. Now eat! ” What we’re saying might be true, but the kid is going to resist, cry and kick and hang onto that little sucker.
But go up to a kid with a little sucker, like with a big ZOO sucker. One that’s huge, several inches across, colorful and just start licking on that thing in front of them. They are going to look and that will be your opportunity to say, “Hey this thing…..it lasts forever. I got this thing years ago at… SLURP…. church and it’s still good.” Pretty soon the kid is going to toss his Dum-Dum and is going to ask, “Hey, where’d you get that?” “Oh this thing, SLURP, I got it from Jesus, SLURP. Taste and see…. SLURP…. the Lord is good!
Pharisee’s used to proclaim to outsiders, “Here is what you are doing wrong! Thou sinner! We are much better.”
How about this….we actually befriend them. I believe if we ever hope to fully recover from being Pharisee’s and hope to win the world for Christ, lets start out positive. The name escapes me but one guy took a lot of heat from Christian Evangelicals recently, but I admire this one guy (maybe Luis Palau or Rick Warren, somebody know?) for actually accepting an invitation to go preach Jesus, the real Jesus to a gathering of Mormon’s in Salt Lake last year. applaud that kind of behavior with gusto!
With all that said, Below are some things I truly ADMIRE about the Mormons.
========
1. I love their personal devotion to their message. The young men in suits riding bicycles you see, give two years to this doing service. Why aren’t we who have the truth doing the same with our message?
2. I love how they emphasize the family unit. We would all do well to have a weekly meeting and prayer with our family.
3. I love the way they emphasize how it is the responsibility of the family to store up provisions to care for their own in the event of an emergency. What if more people on the Gulf Coast when Katrina hit, would have had even half of the provisions the average Mormon family?
In Christ
Andrew \o/
Titus 2:13
Andrew,
I agree Mormons are fine people. Am I attacking a person? If I am I will be glad to remove this. All I am saying is their religion is false. I’m not angry.
Maybe you are right but I’ll have to pray and think about this. How do you suggest dealing with them? I just stated some of their beliefs. Didn’t Paul jump all over Gnosticism? I really do care about people. Am I just to ignore the fact that they are being led to spend eternity away from God?
Apart from the blasphemy of the LDS, I can’t get over the fact that the Mormon teachings are historically racist. Also, how do they reconcile the fact that their so-called holy book has been changed from Joe Smith’s original translation. He was supposed to have been given the gift of translation from God. I guess they had to soften the racist rhetoric. Another issue I have is that they say God is created. And that we can all be Gods.
BDW points out something that I’ve also been told: most Mormons aren’t aware of a lot of the teachings of their church. As one of my sister’s advisors (a major Christian theologian) put it to the Mormons who stopped by his house one day after a long argument, “You may be Christians, but your church isn’t.”
However, even with what your average Mormon in the pew is aware of, the teachings are still so far outside the mainstream of orthodox, historical Chrsitianity that I don’t think LDS members can be called “Christians.” One of my professors said that the difference between Christians and Mormons is that we disagree on the nature of God, the nature of man, and the nature of the relationship between the two. But other than that…
Kevin…You are absolutely right that as a pastor it is your responsibility to warm all about the false beliefs of Mormons. In fact it is the responsibility of all Christians.
This hasn’t been mentioned and none of us know just what will be the Universal Church of the Anti-Christ but the Mormon Church fits the role. What do you think?
Thanks for all the info you give on Mormon beliefs. I believe I knew them but not in the easily read format you’ve given.
Kevin,
I am not coming against you at all. I hope that you did not see what I wrote as a challenge or complaint. You’re doing fine. I don’t think by your intent you were attacking a single person, and yes it is the responsibility of all Christians to speak the truth in love.
I acknowledge that most of your comments were to the body of Christ. Paul did the same as he addressed Gnosticism directly, effectively ‘within the fellowship.’
However, where are we? What are we doing?
My thoughts I guess were about what Paul did as an evangelist. When he came to the idol that was constructed to the unknown god, He didn’t boldly proclaim to the idol worshippers all the reasons idololatry was wrong did he? He certainly as knowledgeable as he was, could have won any debate with any theologian challenging him.
I may just be a wierdo, but this is just an immediate thought that just came to me on the subject…
We often spend a lot of time proclaiming what the lies of the enemy are. What if we spent as much energy proclaiming the truth that ‘Jesus loves everyone’ and go about loving people like He did? Think we might actually accomplish eradicating the world of the damnedable heresey of Morman doctrine that is going to destroy them, and make some friends in the process.
Maybe I am just a little psycho.
I’ll go back to my crayons now.
In Christ
Andrew \o/
Titus 2:13
Andrew,
I agree that is how we should treat people. We should love everyone. But if we just love Mormons, Muslims and every other false religion and don’t proclaim the truth our own people are getting sucked into those religions.
Again, I love Mormons, atheists, homosexuals, adulterers and liars because God told us too. I love people enough to tell them about the error of their ways. I hope my friends love me that much too.
Geekwad
You said
“most Mormons aren’t aware of a lot of the teachings of their church”
That statement holds true for most members of all Christian Churches, I am afraid!
Hi Kevin,
You are correct in your statements regarding Mormonism. So are many others that posted here. Yes, Mormonism is historically racist. More to that later.
My husband was born to Mormon parents. He left Mormonism of his own volition as a 16 year old. It wasn’t any reason except he decided Mormonism was hmmm, “a little out of touch with reality.” He didn’t go on a two year mission, nor did he go to BYU for college. We met at good ‘ol UAB in the 80s. He wasn’t doing anything regarding faith when we met. Meaning, he was stagnant. Because of his experiences in those temple ceremonies (perversion), and the relentless spewing of inaccurate dogma from the Mormons, he pretty much shut down regarding faith.
I was raised in a traditional SBC church, but was floundering in my faith. Certain aspects of college had been traumatic for me when I met my future husband. He was sweet, kind, gentle, extremely intelligent, and motivated for “success.” He was also as lost as the next. When we married, I knew he wasn’t born-again. Yet, he wasn’t Mormon either. In my own personal, shallow, immature Christian relationship I thought I could expose him to truth simply by reciting a few scriptures from John. Ha!
During my husband’s conversion, I learned more about myself and Christ than I had in my 26 years of life. It was an amazing time to see the scales come off my husband’s eyes and for me to have grace engraved in my heart. Simple acts of former VBS scriptures did nothing. It was a grueling struggle for the both of us.
Getting back to the racism in which my husband was indoctrinated. My husband was taught from an early age around 3,4,and 5 that the black race was the direct lineage of Cain. The black race was cursed forever with the sin of Cain and that’s why they were black. What a lie!
The Mormon church didn’t change thit’s official stance regarding racism until two things happened over 25 years ago. One, it grew to be pretty frustrating getting to claim tax-exempt status while drawing the attention of the US Department of Jusctice for official segregation practices. Such as barring blacks and barring blacks from the “priesthood.”
Around the same time as the investigation, it was discovered that a temple in Brazil had actually been built with the help of the black race since many Brazilians are of mixed descent. Aghast! Imagine their dismay that the temple wasn’t pure for Mormon rites. All of a sudden, the prophet for the Mormon church had a divine revelation and officially reversed the stance regarding racism. All this caused my husband to question the inconsistincies he had been taught, among other things.
I’m going to tell him about this page. His story is abundant grace and it’s best told by him. His conversion is different-he’ll be the first to tell anyone it didn’t happen at once. It was a spiritual evolution for him. And no, we don’t believe spiritual evolution is an oxymoron. I got to see upfront how God truly meets the lost exactly where the lost is planted (for the moment). It was a beautiful time for us. We had been inside a literal theological war with each other for years. I couldn’t believe I had been so disobedient to God by marrying outside of my faith and all the consequences it held for me. It’s true that God never changes. Yet, for me, His measure of grace manifests via different transcensions.
Wow! I didn’t mean to take so much time or space. We’ve been married for 19 years so the grace stories are infinite. Maybe he’ll come visit soon and you can hear directly from him. When I talk about Mormonism, I tend to take the academic and not personal approach. Of course, my precious husband will tell anyone that my academic approach is far better than “beating in the head with Bible-in-hand approach!
Grace Abounds Eternally!
Kimberly
Dozer,
When we married, I was given vast amounts of dry goods to store in my pantry. However, it wasn’t for emergencies like Katrina, but for the great Armageddon when the world would be converted to 100% Mormon. Mormons believe they are the “Lost Tribes of Israel.” Now, honestly, the lost tribes might be lost to humanity, but they’re certainly not lost to Jesus Christ!
As far as family is concerned: Have you personally dialogued with former Mormons to know if your position is accurate?
Mormons are constantly doing things out of rote to attain points for whatever level of heaven they hope to achieve. Don’t be fooled. There isn’t one bit of grace within Mormonism.
What you find attractive is satan spinning his web of subtle deceit. There is nothing to love in-and-of Mormonism itself.
Did you know that Mormonism has the highest rate of suicide among organized religion? I agree you can befriend a Mormon. There is a big difference in recognizing an individual Mormon is but one portion of humanity, thereby an example of God’s creation. However, you’re approaching dangerous territory when you admit there are parts of Mormonism that you love and are attracted to them. You’re positioned exactly where satan wants you on his chess board.
Yes, you have to have sensitivity when dealing with Mormons, or any other non-Christian. You also must know why you believe what you believe. You must always be ready to name evil foir evil when defending the faith. It’s a balance I admit. But, in defending the faith, the only thing you can love unabashedly is Jesus Christ! You can only be attracted to Jesus Christ!
Prayerfully,
Kimberly
Kimberly,
Thanks for sharing your story. I hope your husband does drop in & add his insight.
Kevin,
I told my husband about your site. I’ve been hopping around reading all morning. I’m from Huntsville originally, so I’m familiar with Scottsboro.
Anyway, my husband promised to come look around later. I found your site by a link on another site covering a sad situation that I’ll stay mum for it is too close to my heart.
Have a wonderful day!
Kimberly
Hey, I love Mormons too!
I like to ask Mormons what they think of Galatians 1:8-9: “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!”
If the Book of Mormon teaches the same Gospel as the New Testament (which Mormons claim to believe), then it is redundant at best. If it teaches a different Gospel (and it surely does!), then it is heresy. Paul’s words couldn’t have been any stronger.
Thank You Kimberly. If you think I am persuaded to Mormonism, I want to make clear that I am not. I was clear when I stated that I believe that the Mormon religion is a damnedable heresey. So is Gnosticism, Hinduism and Buddism.
Jesus commands us to not only speak the truth, but to do it IN LOVE.
So it stands to reason that if I am attempting to reach out to a person who is Mormon, what a poor ice breaker it is to point out, “You are going to hell! Here’s why you and your phony religion is so bad.” Those who would disagree with me are probably the ones, who also brag, “Yup, I gotta nuther door slammed in my face. Praise God Glory Hallelujah I am getting persecuted for telling folks like it is. Yeah we’re gaining ground fer Jesus!”
If I witnessed that kind of behavior, and a brother said those words to me, my response to them would be, “No you’re not. You are concieted, arrogant and rude and the Spirit is not with you.”
If I am looking to influence people within Mormonism, beginning my conversation like that will immediately put up a wall. We can be 100% right, and win every debate and battle, then lose the war when they die and go to hell. Why? because we did not speak the truth in love. We often wonder why we are rejected, and shunned. So is the kid who has Aspergers or Touretts Syndrome.
I say we can be very clear in what differentiates real Christianity from every other religion in the world and never compromise truth, but we must do it warmly. Because hey, lets face it… but for the grace of God, our eternal destinations would both be an eternal and real hell. I hear preachers rant and rave, I’m against this, and I’m against that, or God’s against this and that and…… Joe Sixpack is all the while wondering hey what is God for?
Is it the uniquely Christian concept that it is impossible for mankind, to ever be “good enough” that doesn’t quite compute with the average believer? I think so, or we would not have guys like me, or Kevin Bussey who are living with the pain of how we treated people we loved in the past by being so harsh like the Pharisee’s were.
We know in the scriptures, the best mankind has to offer is likened to used menstrual cloths when compared to HIS holiness. So it’s no suprise to me that the suicide rates are quite high among people who are good Mormons. Who can feel worthy when we’re so hopeless apart from Jesus? Sadly It’s probably just as high in many works based Christian denominations who say Grace may save you but it is your works that keep you. They aren’t quite so deviant from basic fundemental Christianity as the Mormons, but when they will preach you must observe Sabbath Day worship and other nonsense, it is just as deadly.
I love Jesus. I weep and I mourn for people I love so that they will come to know Him. I have defended the faith vigorously in some pretty hairy situations many Christians cannot believe even though it was told to them, just as it happened. However to say one must ONLY find Jesus attractive, to defend the faith, I am not sure how to take that. I kind of find it attractive to clap our hands in front of a little statue of Buddah and get our wishes granted. A little closer to home is… I kind of wish we could blab-it and grab-it, or name it and claim it. I really like those concepts actually. I would like for it to be truth. It’s not, but I do see the attraction to it.
When we can admit the truth that we need Jesus, just like “they” do, we may actually win some converts, and our churches will again grow.
In Christ
Andrew \o/
Titus 2:!3
Could members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) be more “Christian” than Evangelicals? Protestants and Catholics subscribe to the Nicene creed, which was initiated by the Emperor Constantine in the Fourth Century to rid Scriptures of the Apocrypha, which made reference to the oral traditions of Jewish and early Christian temple worship.
First Century Christian churches, in fact, continued the Jewish temple worship traditions:
1) Baptism of youth (not infants) by immersion by the father of the family
2) Lay clergy
3) Anointing with holy oil after baptism
4) Then clothing in white clothing
Just check with the Israeli Museum to verify. And read Exodus Ch 29 for Aaron and his sons” ordinances. Jewish Temple practices were continued by Christians prior to Constantine”s corruption (see St. Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386) Lecture XXI). Early Christians were persecuted for keeping their practices sacred, and not allowing non-Christians to witness them
A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ being separate beings, united in purpose. To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane, and to whom was he speaking on the Mount of Transfiguration?
The Nicene Creed”s definition of the Trinity was influenced by scribes translating the Greek manuscripts into Latin. The scribes embellished on a passage explaining the Trinity, which is the Catholic and Protestant belief that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The oldest versions of the epistle of 1 John, read: “There are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water and the blood and these three are one.”
Scribes later added “the Father, the Word and the Spirit,” and it remained in the epistle when it was translated into English for the King James Version, according to Dr. Bart Ehrman, Chairman of the Religion Department at UNC- Chapel Hill.
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) have concern for their ancestors” spiritual welfare, so they practice proxy baptism. (1 Corinthians 15:29 & Malachi 4:5-6).
Only members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continue these practices of First Century Christians. But Mormons don”t term Catholics and Protestants “non-Christian”. The dictionary definition of a Christian is “of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to a religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ”:. All of the above denominations are followers of Christ, and consider him the Messiah foretold in the Old Testament.
It”s important to understand the difference between Reformation and Restoration when we consider who might be the more authentic Christian. If members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) embrace early Christian theology, they are likely more “Christian” than their detractors.
* * *
Furthermore, a UCLA study found that observant members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) in their 50s and 60s had one-twentieth the divorce rate, abuse rate, or substance abuse of a demographically similar group in Southern California.
And the National Study of Youth and Religion done by UNC-Chapel Hill in 2005 found that Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) youth (ages 13 to 17) were more likely to exhibit these Christian characteristics than Evangelicals (the next most observant group):
LDS Evangelical
Attend Religious Services weekly 71% 55%
Importance of Religious Faith in shaping daily life –
extremely important 52 28
Believes in life after death 76 62
Believes in psychics or fortune-tellers 0 5
Has taught religious education classes 42 28
Has fasted or denied something as spiritual discipline 68 22
Sabbath Observance 67 40
Shared religious faith with someone not of their faith 72 56
Family talks about God, scriptures, prayer daily 50 19
Supportiveness of church for parent in trying to raise teen
(very supportive) 65 26
Church congregation has done an excellent job in helping
Teens better understand their own sexuality and sexual morality 84 35
Kimberly, I welcome your comments.
I responded earlier today and maybe Kevin can get it dis-lodged out of his spam blocker for you. Rest assured I decided to be a follower of the Jesus Christ of the Bible and am not contemplating joining this cult. I think I was very straightforward and could not use stronger language regarding my feelings about the beliefs of Mormonism.
Christianity is separated from other world religions by one central idea. . . We cannot be good enough to make it to heaven. Islam is works based. Hindu’s have to achieve Nirvanah and go to a Bhuddist temple and you will read that even Bhuddah cannot save. However God considered our weakness and knows we are incapable of reaching heaven. He became the way because He loves us and extended His grace to us so that we can be in a relationship with Him forever. What manner of love has God the Father given unto us, that we shall be called the sons of God?
However I am really not sure how I feel about the comment that we can only be attracted to Jesus. That seems rather dogmatic.
Lets be real. I do love Jesus. He is God and has delivered me and been proved faithful. However of the other world religions, I find Bhudda interesting. That’s a religion that really appeals to my flesh. I’d like to believe all I have to do is clap my hands in front of a little statue of a fat guy and all my desires will be fulfilled. I need a new Car? Clap…on! Boss make you angry….Clap-off Jerk! I have more month than money because my boss fired me? Clap-on, Clap-off… Everyone likes the clapper!
I’d hold to the line that it’s a false religion a few years ago. Yet as I grow in Christ, these other religions do not appear to be false religions.
Before I get called a heretic, hear me out.
They are definitely religions. These monk-guys do exhibit a phenomenal clarity of thought. Yes I am also absolutely convinced of the truth of the power behind it, is from the pit of hell, and will ultimately destroy those seeking fulfilling their flesh.
I choose to love and obey Jesus because only HE can save, but honestly I can see the attraction.
Let’s leave Eastern religion and move closer to home.
I also really like the notion of Blab and Grab. Yup, you’ve heard people in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ on TV who will tell you to just, “Name it and Claim it and it’s yours! God wants to bless you with wealth, health and happiness. For your monthly contribution to this ministry of $100 or more, we will send you a used tissue from my private Jet…bless Go-ahhhd…. Glorai Halle looooo yah!”
But Mormonism? I really do not understand. How anyone could believe what an Angel named Moroni said.
Sounds rather….moronic?
But Jesus loves them, and I do too.
In Christ
Andrew \o/
Titus 2:13
Hi Andrew,
I just got home and I’m reading your post. I’ll respond to your post tomrrow. Having just skimmed your post, but not thoroughly read it, I’ll own that I didn’t do a great job of communicating with “attractive.” My only excuse is that it was 0500 CST and I’ve been getting roped into Calvinism vs. Free Will debates this week with three teenagers.
And I welcome comments too.
Tired,
Kimberly
Oh! and Bot-
I’ll respond to you too tomorrow.
Tired,
Kimberly
Bot,
I want to engage you on one portion of your post.
“Nicene creed, which was initiated by the Emperor Constantine in the Fourth Century to rid Scriptures of the Apocrypha”
I am not sure where your source is for this statement, but historically this has never been the case. The Emperor Constantine did call the council, but the question at hand was the Nature of Christ. Specifically the Arian controversy.
The Canon of Scripture was not the subject of this council. Also, the Scriptures contained (and my Bible still contains) the Apocrypha.
The KJV translated in 1611 contained it. It was in the early 1820’s when the General Committee of the Bible Society, in London, decided to remove the Apocrypha from their Bibles, not a Church council.
In fact it strongly appears that Joesph Smith had a Bible with the Apocrypha in it, since there are connections between the two. The word “Nehpi” is found in the Apocrypha (2 Maccabees 1:34 – 36).
Bot,
Those are all great statistics. And if you asked the motive behind the answers, I fairly sure you’d come up with a very legalistic slant. I know, because I lived it.
Those statistics are what troubles or confuses many Christians when looking at Mormonism and its seemingly very ethical and moral people. But why are they so? Because they feel obligated to obey the law, not because they love and have a daily relationship with the Fulfiller of the Law. It’s so they can obtain a result on their own. I now refer to it as the difference between Religion and Faith.
I don’t recall discussions of grace, only a system of works that sets one up to ultimately fail. I didn’t hear of a real relationship with my Savior, only how I could do works, ultimately to fall short in a quest to exalt myself.
In my youth years I memorized plenty of KJV tidbits. Eph 2:8,9 weren’t in the group. Why? Because it is all about what you do, and not who you know (or rather the One who knows you). Good things that I do do not impact my eternal security. My eternity is in His hands and His alone, by His Grace. I do things because I want to, not to get a ticket in the gates!
Just a brief perspective of one born and raised in a devout Mormon family, but by His Grace has been saved!
Because of Him,
Keith
Keith,
Thanks for sharing your story.
Bot,
I see that my husband, Keith responded to you already. He’s much more gentle than myself. I’ll just add: those statistics mean absolutely zilch to the lost burning in hell.
Statistically speaking or speaking in a mathematical sort of way: God refused to encounter Moses face forward because God’s Holiness and Glory was too great for Moses. (see Hebrew scriptures of Exodus) Now, Moses was pretty special to God. It was God that chose Moses to lead His people out of bondage on a journey. This journey ultimately allowed God’s people to have a personal encounter with God at His Mercy Seat.
See, Mormons and every other works-based religion are all trying to solve for x. Faith is not a chemical equation; faith is not a geometrical proof. You can’t solve for x and prove that there is a God, nor are you God. And you certainly can’t prove Mormonism is a Christian faith. All of your statistics prove one thing only: Mormonism is a man-made religion resulting in eternal demise. It certainly doesn’t result in eternal life.
What is the probability of God having a face-to-face encounter with a man in the early 19th century? Especially when we’re told in the Greek that God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever?
My hope is in the cross! Where is yours? It’s certainly not the cross. You’ll never walk into a stakehouse and see a cross. Yes, I know why. You Mormons don’t believe in the atoning death of the Sacrificial Lamb. So, therefore, the crux of Christianity, the real Christianity, is not even part of your religion!
So let’s look at the Cross. What is the cross? Is it the intersection of two line segments? No, it’s not. The cross in the intersection of two lines. They’re infinite; they’re never-ending as far as the east is to the west.
At the point of intersection, the cross has 4- 90 degree angles for a total of 360 degrees. What is 360 degrees? It’s a circle.
The circle is the encampment of God all around the believer. Just as God encamped around the tribes of Israel. It is just as Christ encamped around His disciples in the gardens. Do you think He didn’t know they were going to fall asleep? Of course He did!
At His Ascension, He left us His Holy Spirit to encamp around us. The Ascension wasthe completion of the Trinity or Pie as in 3. The infinite, the ever-lasting, the eternal life-line.
Truthfully,
Kimberly
You love Mormons, but you claim Mormons teach that God had sex with Mary?
No, you’re confusing Mormonism with an old Borscht belt comedy routine.
And, by the way, are you aware that the Southern Baptist Convention’s language is that they believe the Bible so far as it is translated correctly?
I love Pharisees — should I suggest roasting them until the log in their eyes are burned away? That’s rather the love for Mormons I see expressed here.
Ed,
I never said that. They say it in their own theology.
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon385.htm
I’m not a member of the LDS church, but it seems odd to be citing former members of the LDS as evidence of their doctrine. It would be a little like an atheist citing Betrand Russell and Frederich Nietzsche (notable people who rejected the Christian faith) as evidence for Christian beliefs. Or perhaps more pertinently, it would be like CBF leaders explaining the meaning of the BFM2000.
http://mormon.org/learn/0,8672,1082-1,00.html
“You may have questions about what members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe. Some of the basic beliefs of the Church are:
God is our Heavenly Father. He loves us and wants us to return to Him.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is our Savior. He redeems us from death by providing the Resurrection. He saves us from sin as we repent.
Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we can return to live with God if we keep His commandments.
The Holy Ghost helps us to recognize truth.
The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The Church of Jesus Christ has been restored to the earth.
The priesthood authority of God exists in His Church today, just as it did in the original Church.
The Bible and the Book of Mormon are the word of God.
God reveals His will to prophets today, just as He did anciently.
Our life has a sacred purpose.
Families can be together forever.
Through serving others, we can experience joy and draw closer to God. ”
These beliefs are different, substantially so, from orthodox Christianity. I am not claiming that the LDS church is orthodox, but I do think that any meaningful discussion about mormonism needs to look at the source material produced by members of the LDS church.
I am left wondering how many rank and file LDS members are fully aware of all church beliefs. As I read these, it sounds relatively close to Christianity.
Onelittleman,
That is the problem. They “sound” like Christians but they are not. They are fine people and they “do” lots of good things. They are family oriented and try to be very straight and narrow.
The problem is we can never be good enough. They are deceiving people. A personal relationship with Jesus is the only way to heaven.
I have to agree that citing dissidents as authorities is mighty odd, if your point is that you’re trying to say what the non-dissidents believe.
If that’s the extent of your authority on the subject, here is the complete refutation, from a non-dissident: http://www.absalom.com/mormon/contrib/deny-beliefs.html
Specifically, I call you out on this: No Mormon doctrine teaches that God had sex with Mary. None. The word used is “begotten,” which is the same word Baptists use — it’s the English word in many translations. If it is your claim that Mormons use “begotten,” you are right. If it is your claim that by this they mean “physical sex,” then your condemnation must rain down on all Christians who believe Jesus is the Son of God.
And that is unacceptable. The method of conception is not a point of Mormon doctrine in any way, any more than it is a point of doctrine in most other Christian sects. The question the Mormons discuss is whether Jesus was the Son of God in spirit only, since some argue that Jesus’ physical father was either Joseph or some other humans. Mormons deny that Mary was not a virgin, and Mormons deny that a human fathered Jesus.
Put the doctrine that way, and do you disagree? If you argue that some human was the father of Jesus, physically, I’ll concede your point.
Otherwise, I must call you to repent, and change your claim. You are peddling calumny against others.
Ed,
Repent from what? The LDS religion is heresy. If God gives me a burning in my bosom then maybe I will.
Two links you ought to check out.
Here’s a statement by Spencer W. Kimball on Jesus’ life — try to find something that Christians disagree with (other than mentions of Mormon scripture): http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=c5bffc3157a6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1
(Oh, yeah, you’ll complain about “brother Lucifer,” claiming somehow that such a concept is evil, though to Mormons what it means is we are all children of God — I’m talking serious stuff: What is there to complain about in that piece?)
Then take a look at Ezra Benson’s explanation of the five ways one can know Jesus was divine, including the divine birth: http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=6124ba9ff599b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1
Are you going to complain about the word “begotten” again, hoping we won’t notice that would be a repudiation of John 3.16?
Ed,
I will look at them but the fact is the LDS are teaching false doctrines. Do they believe that salvation is by faith alone? NO!
The LDS is working overtime to appear to be a Christian denomination, hoping no one will review their history and doctrine. Ironically, they got started by claiming the real church had disappeared from the earth. Now they claim to be a part of that church.
Can Ed or some Mormon apologist find some things that square up with Christian doctrine? Of course,but that proves nothing. Does that mean Mormonism as a whole is true? Of course not.
I’m not saying that 100% of what they claim is false, just that they are wrong on many essentials of the faith and that in their official doctrine the “Jesus” they describe is not the Jesus of the Bible. All heresies contain an element of truth. That makes them easier to sneak into the church.
Neil,
Part of the problem is they do have some truth in their doctrine. That is what makes it so dangerous. Even if they were 99% truthful (which the are not) that 1% is what leads people astray.
But the Mormons don’t teach that God had sex with Mary, it’s not a tenet of their faith, and they don’t preach that salvation is by anything other than faith (it’s just that some sinners would prefer to have be “faith and keep on sinnin’”). Nor is it a polytheistic faith any more than any trinitarian doctrine is.
Part of the problem is that critics of Mormonism are willing to forget all the teachings of Jesus in order to denigrate Mormons.
And watch out for that 1% doctrine — creationism is heresy, too. Most Baptists buy it, though it ultimately denies God’s role as the Creator. Would it be fair, or politick, to go around saying Baptists and others who purchase creationism “are not real Christians?” Would anyone benefit? Would any Baptists be persuaded to abandon their 1% that leads them astray?
Where do you get creationism is heresy?
Show me where in LDS doctrine that Faith is the “ONLY” way to heaven. It is not there. You have to work your way to heaven. It is all based on being good. There religion is also based on a “made up” book called the Book of Mormon.
Not being an LDS member, I can’t make any sort of definitive statement about LDS teaching on what takes a person to heaven.
However, it seems like the bigger issue is whether you believe the Bible was closed at the end of the 1st century and whether God would call a person to write more scripture in the United States in the 1830s. I figure that the Bible was closed with the new testament and I don’t see Joseph Smith as a prophet. This seems to be the biggest issue to me.
That being said, I looked at a couple of places written by members of the LDS.
http://www.jefflindsay.com/faith_works.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Christian.shtml#how
http://www.lds.org/features/frames/0,5963,254-88-1,00.html
http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,889-1,00.html
As near as I can tell, it looks like the LDS teaches that you need to live like you’re saved. I’m not sure this means works or not. As I read the materials, it looks more like the middle part of how my preacher describes getting saved. First is conversion by faith. Second is sanctification where we try to live for God. Third is the going to heaven part (I always forget the fancy word for that). At casual glance, it looks like the LDS emphasizes the sanctification aspect of getting saved.
As I reflect more on this, I don’t see how what the LDS is saying is substantively different from the Lordship Salvation that John McArthur and the calvinist guys like so much. Additionally, since the sbc seems to be turning out more and more preachers from our schools that are basically calvinists, I’m not sure Lordship Salvation won’t be the official position of the sbc in a few years.
Again, I’m not LDS, but based on what they are saying about themselves, I don’t think they’re really working their way to heaven. I think it makes more sense to disagree with them on divine revelation through living prophets and basically an additional Bible in the book of mormon. I also disagree with the familiolatry that seems to be a big part of temple marriage. I don’t see how eternal marriage can be taught when Jesus seems to directly reject the idea.
But as an outsider, who just spent a slow afternoon in the office reading about LDS teachings, I’m hardly qualified to state with authority what the LDS believes. Unless our graduate schools are giving majors in LDS studies, most of the preachers I know are still relying on The Godmakers which seems a little over the top even for exmos trying to convert their relatives.
Ed,
Where in the teachings of Jesus do you find the ability of any of mankind to become an exalted being? Where does He say that God was once a man prior to being God?
Onelittleman,
I’ll say it again. The Mormon people are nice, honest people. The problem is that isn’t good enough for God. They base their salvation on works. The Bible teaches salvation is through grace alone.
Brother Kevin,
I agree with this statement, “The Bible teaches salvation through grace alone.”
I don’t see what authority you are citing for this statement, “They base their salvation on works.” Where are you getting this statement? I don’t necessarily disagree with you, think you’re wrong, or that you’ve misstated LDS doctrine. I haven’t see anything produced by the LDS that says people work their way to heaven. I’ve read The Godmakers, and this is his position (among more sensational claims).
Just for fun, I don’t see any meaningful difference between what the LDS seems to be teaching and the lordship salvation that the calvinist guys in our own convention are so in love with.
One Little Man,
You know, I stopped a long time ago giving specific addresses in Scripture or resources (call me unorthodox) because I personally believe it has nothing to do with supporting my claim, but every bit of spoonfeeding the debatee.(yes, I’ve debated for years, in the scholastic and personal realm).
But I will tell you this, go buy the Book of Mormon and compare it to the works of Brigham Young (we’ve got them all) Those two contradict each other.
And as far as works, sex with Mary, etc…it’s ALL there. In fact it’s so much there that in 1995 the Mormon stakehouse in the “ward” in which we lived forbid Mormon missionaries to come to OUR door. Why? Becasue they left our door extremely confused.
When you sit down with a Mormon, make sure you have: a book of mormon, the works of Brigham Young, the KJV according to the church of lds, the KJV, a NASB, and a Hebrew/Greek Thesaurus and Concordance. We have all of them. One has to know why she believes what she believes.
I could go on with alot more, but it’s Good Friday and my husband would like for me to be sweet today. (no sarcasm intended)
Show up at a stakehouse. Ask them why a Cross isn’t in the building anywhere. Sometimes apologetics is offensive instead of defensive. I learned that a very long time ago. No, I’ve never been to Seminary, but my husband has. We just happen to have different approaches.
Dissident? Not myself, I’ve never been a lds. According to God I’m uniquely made and I debate in a unique manner. It doesn’t mean my style is any less qualified.
Kimberly
Forgot to add-the caps are for emphasis and not shouting.
Kimberly
Well, Kevin, thanks for explaining the central tenets of Mormonism in point form, as I have, in the past, tried to wade through the Book of Mormon and found it unbelievably tedious stuff. Not as mad as the Koran, just very, very tiresome.
I used to try searching for Catholic ancestors with the LDS site and had no luck at all. Then I discovered the bit about baptising the dead, and learned that Catholic parishes refuse to divulge info on dead congregants, in order to prevent Mormons baptising them.
You asked GW what error Jesus made. OK- why did he promise to return in the lifetime of his followers? They’ve all been dead for 2,000 years.
Oops, sorry for this second post, but I forgot to ask the other qustion: How would people know if a prophet erred, if his prophecies were to eventuate in the very distant future? Like “John” and his badly misnamed Book of Revelation. He’s believed by some to have foretold conditions for our present time, so how would people in the first century know him to be correct or not?
Kevin teaches that the Mormon’s have “some truth” in their beliefs, but they are not complete…like the Baptist beliefs that Kevin preaches.
Sadly, I was once a Baptist, and was taught that it was alright to drink beer at sunday school parties, flirt with other mens wives, do anything vile thing I wanted to do (especially so if I was a deacon and helped the pastor get a salary increase) and basically do the same things I did prioe to Baptism…just so long I proclaim that old agage “once saved always saved.”
So…what part of this doctrine would make Kevin’s church true…while the Mormon belief of striving for a sin free life after conversion, and performing good deeds for humanity is reported by him to be false???
Why do most christian denominations so emphasize an execution device? A cross is on their buildings, it is on their books, and it is worn around their necks. One might as well have a necklace depicting a lethal injection syringe or a guillotine.
Don’t they know that Jesus Christ lives? HE arose from the grave and conquered death.
Why don’t they have a rolled away stone instead?
Bill Luke 9:23 says “take up your cross daily.”
Romans 14:11 tells us HE lives.
Bill,
That is true. But if it were not for the cross we wouldn’t have eternal life.
Also, I sorry you went to a Baptist church that had alcohol at parties and people who were flirting. I would have been disturbed too. But my faith isn’t based on a church or a denomination–my faith is based on my personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
Exactly what is…your personal elationship with Jesus Christ?
-Do you judge others?
-Do you bear false witness against others and
their beliefs?
-Do you insight division?
-Do you try to trick people into corners (sort of
like the Pharisees?
-DO you really love all people?
-Do you go our of your way to spread good will?
-Do you give 10% of all increase to the Lord?
-Do you charge a salary for all the above?
Here is what I believe. Please foprward your doctrinal overview.
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,FF.html
Bill,
I’m glad you asked. I’m not into religion. I talk with Jesus daily. I spend time praying every single day. I write out my prayers during the week because it causes me to slow down and think about what I say. I also spend time listening to God talk with me.
I’ve never heard him speak in an audible voice however He has spoken through His Word, the Holy Spirit, messages, circumstances and other people.
Sure I’ve judged people. Then I repent and turn from my sins. I’m not perfect.
What false witness have I given about Mormons? Do you wear Holy Underwear? Do you believe that women must be invited into heaven by their husbands? Do you believe you will be a God one day?
I don’t want to divide the body of Christ but I don’t consider Cults as a part of the body of Christ. Sometimes the truth hurts.
I really do love all people. I care about you. If you lived next door and your house was on fire don’t you think I would warn you? My calling is to warn everyone that if they don’t turn to Jesus they are going to spend eternity in hell.
My passion is to tell people the Good News of Jesus Christ. The Good News is He died for our sins and all we have to do is turn from our sins and accept his “free gift” of forgiveness and He will change our lives. He changed mine.
I do give my tithe to the church and I give above that to other missionaries. But I don’t go around bragging about it. I live under grace.
I don’t charge anything. My church provides me money.
Have you ever visited a Latter Day Saint Church? I can promise you that if you were to go and see for yourself, you would be ashamed at some of the derogatory things you have mentioned on these blogs.
There are pictures of Jesus Christ ( the same as perceived by all churches…only more) all over the walls. Little children go to Sunday School class…singing innocent songs about Jesus.
Yesterday, we studied in Luke for Sunday School class (as we will be in the New Testament the entire year). We sing praises to Jesus Christ. We testify of Him. We sing of HIM. We witness of HIS sacrafice on the cross of Calvary. We pray to God through his son Jesus Christ. Our name is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
We do not call our garments “Holy Underwear” but if you really studied the Bible, you would discover that the ancient Jews also wore garments. It is scriptural. We worship in Temples. We do not believe women have to be invited into Heaven by their husbands. The Church does not own Pepsi Cola. We do not drink caffeine because it is an addictive drug.
I could go on and tell you that reverend Al Sharpton just visited the CHurch Headquarters in Salt Lake City, and came away with an apology for calling Mormons “non Christians.”
Kevin…you have admitted that you judge others, then qualify it by saying that you repent. But don’t you know that once someone truly repents, they strive NOT to do that sin or act ever again?
You state that you do not believe in denominations, yet you preach from the pulpit of a Baptist Church. You say that you do not ask for a salary…but…would you remain at that church if they asked you to perform your services for free?
I do not think you would rescue me from a burning house any more than the wicked people in Missouri would have, when they burned innocent women, children and men. Imagine of your wife was raped, and your children were set on fire because you only believed deeper than your neighbors.
Why aren’t you as pasionate about disproving other churches, as your the Mormon Church? What threat do they pose to you or your salvation???
Bill,
I would rescue anyone that was burning.
I’m passionate about the TRUTH. The truth is in Jesus only not any “one” church like the Mormons teach. You teach the only way a person can go to heaven is by being baptized in your church.
I’m sure you are a good person. But being good isn’t good enough.
Again, you have made a false statement, based on what you have heard otehrs say..versus…actually researching it for yourself.
We DO NOT believe that the only way a person can go to heaven is by being baptized in our church.”
That just IS NOT a factual truth, and you have once again judged anti the truth.
You would NOT rescue anyone who was burning. You would stand there and say to yourself, “that serves those Mormons right anyway” as evidenced by your total disregard to search out the very truth you claim is so important to you.
Obviously you noticed that I took a long hiatus from this blog…just to see if attitudes about all of God’s children (regardless of their beliefs) had changed. But sadly, it has not, and in fact, the falsehoods and negativity have only intensified.
I’ll make a deal with you. I PROMISE to you in the name of Jesus Christ, that if you will go only once (even tell them who you are and why you are there) that you will come away changed. Likewise, you should invite the missionaries in your area to visit your church.
Bill,
I’ve read the LDS material and I’ve been “blacklisted” by your church for the Elders coming to my house. I would keep them in my home just to keep them from teaching lies to my neighbors.
I would rescue a satanist from a burning home. I don’t want to see anyone perish especially those who don’t know Jesus because they will spend eternity away from God.
You Mormons disguise your theology and “temples” to be places of worshiping God but you don’t worship the true living God that I worship. The Baptist church you went to obviously did a poor job showing the light of Christ. For that I’m sorry.
Just for curiosity’s sake, what is your definition of hell?
1. Is it an actual place where you burn forever?
2. Is it a state of eternal sadness, once one r
realizes they could have had so much more.
Also…where is Adolf Hitler today…if…he
converted to your theology prior to his death? In other words, would he be worthy of the same place you plan to go?
Kevin, what qualifies you as a follower of Jesus Christ, in light of the fact that you continually belittle, falsely accuse, judge, and berate HIS children…regardless of their differences on worship?
Bill,
Hell is an actual place that people who don’t accept Jesus will burn forever.
To answer your other question:
If Hitler or anyone else repented and asked Jesus to become the leader of their life–Yes they are in heaven. The thief on the cross is a perfect example.
How am I belittling you? I’m sure you are a nice person. But being nice isn’t good enough. The Bible says we must be born again.
So….based on your theory, h (Hitler) would be entitled to the same reward as you?
How does a soul (without a physical bod) burn?
If your child studies long hours, works for months on a school project, turns in the best one in class…while other children wait to the last day and do virtually nothing, how would you feel if the other children ALL got the same “A” as your child?
Bill,
What you don’t understand is God’s ways go against ours. It really doesn’t matter what I think. It’s not about me–It is all about God.
Matthew 20:1-16 explains this:
1″For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3″About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5So they went.
“He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’
7″ ‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.
“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’
8″When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’
9″The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12′These men who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
13″But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
16″So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
How does a spirit burn????
From a Baptist preacher:
http://www.greaterthings.com/Ridenhour/Protestant_Evangelism/TwoSticks/index.html
“My hope is in the cross! Where is yours? It’s certainly not the cross. You’ll never walk into a stakehouse and see a cross. Yes, I know why. You Mormons don’t believe in the atoning death of the Sacrificial Lamb. So, therefore, the crux of Christianity, the real Christianity, is not even part of your religion!”
I can’t speak for Bill (toward whom I believe this comment was directed), but for me, I recognize that the cross is a symbol of the Savior’s death and Resurrection and a sincere expression of faith. However, to assume that Mormons (LDS) don’t believe in “the atoning death of the Sacrificial Lamb” simply because you don’t see a cross atop the steeple of the church houses, or decorating the chapels, hallways, or classrooms therein, well… it’s simply ignorant. Or, more delicately put, a syllogistic fallacy.
The message of the LDS church is a declaration of the living Christ. Members of the LDS church are taught that the way they live their lives should demonstrate their love for the Savior and his work. Therefore, their lives and how they live them become a meaningful expression of their faith and, therefore, a symbol of their worship.
If you did venture into an LDS “stakehouse” (sounds like a steak and rib joint! Pass the A1!) you would find that Sunday services are centered around the ordinance of the sacrament—as instituted by Jesus Christ on the night before his crucifixion when he met with his apostles (see Luke 22:19–20)—in which church members partake of bread and water in remembrance of Jesus Christ’s atoning sacrifice. This ordinance is an essential part of their worship and spiritual development.
Incidentally, I do believe that LDS chaplains wear a symbol of a cross on their military uniforms to show that they are Christian chaplains.
Oh, I almost forgot. As a majority of the bulleted points in the original post by Kevin B. range from generalizations of teachings taken out of context to downright inaccuracies, I feel it is irresponsible to be touting them as LDS doctrine. I’m just saying.
Cat,
Thanks for stopping by. Is the “Grace” of Jesus the only way to heaven or do you have to do good works?
Phew! You are speedy quick with the replies! Thanks for the welcome. I have enjoyed reading through many of your posts and the comments that follow. That being said, I feel as if I’m walking into a “grace versus good works” trap. Just a hunch.
Regardless, here’s my answer: If what you mean by “grace” is do I believe that Jesus Christ offered his life, his blood, his spiritual anguish as a redeeming ransom from sin, then yes. I believe we are saved from our sins through the blood of Jesus Christ, not by our works. And all the obedience in the world can’t save us from our sins; only the grace of Christ gives us that hope.
However, I also believe that more is required of us for salvation than simply a verbal expression of faith in Jesus. That smacks of lip-service to me. I do not believe that we are saved by grace without any effort on our part, that once we are saved we are guaranteed salvation without the need to keep the commandments we’ve been given. As recorded in Matthew, Jesus himself taught that “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
So it seems to me that rather than asking “Is the “Grace” of Jesus the only way to heaven or do you have to do good works?”, the question really should be, “What is the will of the Father?”
Cat,
Thanks for your response. It sounds like your faith is based on what you do. Mine is based on what Jesus DID for me when He died on a cross for my sins. I’m saved by His grace and there is nothing I can do to earn His free gift. If I earned it–it would not be a gift. I’m grateful for that because if my going to heaven and having a relationship with Jesus is based on what I do I’m in trouble. I’ll never be good enough.
I do good works not to win God’s grace but out of gratitude to Him.
Yowch! And SNAP goes the trap. I saw it coming, but it still smarts. I respectfully disagree with your willfully obtuse interpretation of what I wrote. I was quoting Jesus, from the Gospel according to Matthew. You know, “By their fruits ye shall know them” and all that jazz.
That being said, I think it disingenuous of you to say that you do good works out of gratitude, not to “win” anything. Why do good works at all? You don’t have to, right? You can just sit back on your heavenly laurels, waiting for the big freebie of salvation coming your way when you die. It’s a gift! That sounds like a pretty good deal, actually. Hmm…
Oops. Now I’m being disingenuous. Sorry.
I feel compelled to mention that no where did I state that we had to be perfect to have a relationship with Jesus. Of course that is not the case. Nobody, save Jesus, is perfect. But honestly… that doesn’t men we shouldn’t try.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I admire your faith and tenacity.
Cat,
I didn’t say it Jesus did. In Romans 3:23 Paul who was under the power of the Holy Spirit said:
Romans 5: 8 says:
Romans 6:23 says:
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Romans 10:13 says:
“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Oh, for Pete’s sake.
No actually I do if for Jesus sake!