Ray Comfort, author of God Doesn’t Believe in Atheists, alongside fellow Christian and actor Kirk Cameron (Growing Pains) will butt heads with two ardent nonbelievers using only scientific fact in a debate sponsored by ABC. Comfort says that the evidence will “absolutely” confirm that there is a God, and he will not speak about his faith.
The debate is in reaction to the “Blasphemy Challenge” that started late in 2006. The two creators of the movement encouraged all people to tape themselves with a short message that will “damn themselves to hell.” Participants must recite the line “I deny the Holy Spirit,” and then upload their video onto YouTube.
“Most people equate atheism with intellectualism,” explained Comfort in a statement, “but it’s actually an intellectual embarrassment. I am amazed at how many people think that God’s existence is a matter of faith. It’s not, and I will prove it at the debate – once and for all. This is not a joke. I will present undeniable scientific proof that God exists.”
ABC has said that they will film the debate, which will take place on May 5 in New York City, and will stream it live on their website as well as use footage for their program Nightline. Martin Bashir, co-anchor of Nightline, will moderate the event.
Comfort felt impelled to hold the debate, because he is worried about the state of Christianity around the world, especially in Europe. According to a Zukerman study, in Sweden as many as 85 percent of the population are non-believers; Japan has 65 percent; France with 54 percent; and 44 percent of British citizens do not believe in God.
Read about it here.
[From me]
The Blasphemy Challenge is scary. I first found about it when Jeffrey Crawford posted about them last month. The unchurched has been a passion of mine for a few years. Look at those percentages for other countries. Here in the US we are starting to see families who have never been to church. It scares me because I feel we are headed into an era like the Hebrews went through after the death of David:
What do you think?
I think there are deep thinkers on all sides, but I fear we won’t hear from any of them at this debate. Comfort sounds like a loony, does anyone know otherwise? I am sure ABC will dredge up a second pair of raving fruitcakes, and then edit the debate so that it looks like everyone comes out even.
Geekwad,
Have you heard Comfort of Cameron speak? They really know what they are talking about.
I’ve heard Cameron “testify”. I haven’t heard him speak like a sane person. But I have heard Comfort’s claims from other people before. They were wrong, but they sold a lot of tickets, so I presume their injured pride (ha-ha) was assuaged.
I’m fond of the Blasphemy Challenge. Its given me a tool that stops most conversion attempts cold. The other half keep trying anyway. :-/
Geekwad,
What if you are wrong? Do you not worry about your future?
I might well ask you the same. You’ve rejected as many possibilities as I have. Did you pick the religion with the most severe penalties for not believing? I doubt it, but that seems to be a reasonable inference. Stepping on a crack probably won’t break your mother’s back. BUT WHAT IF YOU’RE WRONG?! That’s just not a reasonable way to live.
Of course I worry about my future. My finite, precious and easily expended future. I wish you would worry more about that part.
Geekwad, I’ve heard both Comfort and Cameron speak regarding the Christian faith and they both are quite compelling (at least from where I sit as a Christian). I’m glad to have you posting here, and I am curious about something. Why do you believe that there is no God?
I appreciate the question, but I’ve already fielded it a few times on this blog. Perhaps you could review one of my recent posts and get back to me with any follow-up questions.
See: http://kevinbussey.wordpress.com/2007/04/26/will-we-become-numb/#comment-29912
(The question was regarding Jesus rather than God, but I don’t really distinguish when it comes to this sort of question.)
There were earlier, perhaps better responses, but it’s not really easy to search this site.
Did Kirk Cameron even go to college?
It’s outrageous to make such a claim.
What is Ray Comfort going to say that hasn’t already been said?
Never heard of the atheists in this debate. But, could you imagine say a Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris debating child-actor Kirk cameron? That would embarassing.
I don’t need Cameron, Comfort, or any of the ID folks to prove the existence of God. Being a follower of Christ is about faith – and the need for faith seems to disappear when religion is explained with empirical proof.
And Cameron’s obsession with Left-Behind theology truly bothers me…
Geekwad,
I didn’t pick God–He came after me. He pursued me and I realized I was lost without Him. I chose to follow God because I have seen what He has done for me. He gave me forgiveness of my sins. He has given me abundant life.
Even if I was wrong I have lived a moral life without regrets. But I know I’m not wrong because I’ve seen God perform miracles in my life.
I have no problem believing you didn’t make a conscious choice. It was probably made for you. It’s *hard* to question what everyone around you says is true — even if there isn’t a scrap of supporting evidence.
But conscious or not, a choice was made. I think you are equivocating.
How am I equivocating? It all comes down to Faith. Do you have faith there is no God or there is a God? I have seen evidence of God working in my life. You can choose not to believe it but He has worked in my life in mighty ways.
While I may have hopes for the debate, I will agree with some others here that it seems unlikely that Comfort or Cameron will be able to present evidence which will settle the issue “once and for all.” In this debate, many have chosen their side and will not be swayed regardless of what is presented.
Geekwad,
After looking over your other responses I am able get some sense of where you are coming from. You say that you do not want to make a decision on the issue of God yet because that limits your options in the future, and because you’ve heard the case for God and Jesus poorly argued in the past. Is that a fair assessment? My next question would be: What evidence, if any, would convince you to believe in God?
BDW,
What does a trip to college have to do with anything? If you don’t like Kirk Cameron, that’s fine, but if you’re going to put him down at least criticize the man’s content or arguments. I’m not a fan of the “Left Behind” theology either, but you seem to really be taking it to him personally (i.e., ad hominem) . I think that we do need qualified people who will stand up and give an answer to those who would attack the Christian faith.
Yes, Christianity is a faith, but it is not altogether illogical nor is it an unreasonable faith.
Can I tell a story?
Our dryer was dying. The heating element needed to be replaced. At one time, my husband could have replaced it with no problems, but after having endured radiation and chemo for head & neck cancer, and also suffering with a disease much like rhumatoid arthritis, alas, he no longer has the strength to attempt such things…
So, we decided to go shopping at the “scratch & dent” place for a new dryer. We found a nice one for a lot less than it would originally have cost and we were very tempted to purchase it on the spot. However, we decided to leave the store and pray about whether God would have us purchase this dryer. After we had prayed and thought about it, my husband had no peace from the LORD to purchase the dryer, so we went home. This was a Thursday.
The next Monday, my brother called my Mother and she happened to ask him, in fun, if he had a dryer for us (my mother lives with my husband and me). Of course he said no, but his father-in-law, who was with him at the time, happened to overhear the conversation and said he might could round up a dryer for her…
Within two hours my brother and his father-in-law were driving up with an almost brand new dryer for us!
Yes, having a Father(God) that cares even for our most mundane needs is worth way more than all the riches in the world!!!
God would not give my husband peace to purchase a dryer because He already had one for us that only needed to be delivered!
God has provided us a car and blessed our finances out of the blue so we could survive the expenses of cancer treatment, and He has helped us get out of debt (other than our house – that’s next).
Why would God allow cancer and other diseases and sicknesses? Our faith was tested and we found God to be faithful in all things. He was with us during the sickness. He gave me supernatural strength to accomplish the things I had to do in order to take care of my husband. My husband’s faith was transformed during this time as He drew nearer to His God out of desperation and helplessness to control what was happening to him.
God is Faithful. God is Just. God is True. No further proof needed.
Good news, folks. God, just the other day, provided me with a tiny, but extremely destructive kitten which I’ve named Catzilla.
My problem with believers is that when something good happens, “God” is always given a pat on the back, but when misfortunes like cancer, the death of the bread-winner, failed exams, etc occur, God is completely exonerated. This is why I respect the WBC people- they have no problem with attributing EVERYTHING to God’s sovereign will. At least they’re consistent.
Marie, you weren’t given “supernatural” strength at all. You’re a female, equipped by Nature to perform incredible feats in caring for your loved ones. Mothers of children in danger will do anything to save their littlies- they will dash through burning homes, lift cars, fight off intruders, and so on. That’s how Nature made us.
We girls are a lot tougher in every way than the boys. (What man could endure the agony of childbirth for even a minute?) We live longer, are more resistant to pain, stress and injury, and are multi-skilled – what mere male could feed the dog, talk on the phone, cook dinner and correct a kid’s homework, all simultaneously?
“Supernatural” implies that you were able to somehow transcend the laws of physics. You didn’t. Nobody ever has. You are a completely normal woman.
As a travel agent pungently observed, the world is full of aged widows who spent years caring for disbabled husbands. What do they do when hubby dies? Do they fall apart and spend the next few years grieving? No. They’re off on world tours, splashing the deceased’s money on having a good time. It’s true. As a globe-trotter, I’ve seen it countless times
What’s happened to you has happened a trillion times over- whenever a crisis occurs, the females can take full charge for as long as is necessary. Been there, done that. But it wasn’t supernatural in my case. I was just being a normal, very adaptable female, able to endure great hardships and trials without caving in. We’re wonderful at surviving!
Kevin, I really hate the word “unchurched”. It sounds like we’re in need of a slightly disgusting surgical procedure.
You say it all comes down to faith, but the gospel says that the faith itself comes from God as a gift. Well, so far “God” has seen fit in his awesome wisdom NOT to grant that gift to me or Geekwad, so we cannot be held acountable for that.
What is the Blasphemy Challenge? Is it as much fun as the online quiz to determine which religion has the most horrible God?
In case you’re wondering, Jehovah beat Allah by several lengths.
Francoise,
Thanks for the advise. I will use the term “seeker” from now on.
That’s an inexact term. Not all of us are seekers. Remember that “God” is the one responsible for who will seek him or not. Why not just say non-Christians? That includes just about every human being on the planet.
Francoise,
Your wish is my command.
Francoise,
I am truly happy for you that you have found the strength within yourself to endure the many hardships that have come your way! God did create women with the ability to suffer hardships in incredible ways!
I, too, believe that God allows all things to occur for our good and for His glory. My husband’s cancer was for our good and proved to us that God will not give His glory to another. He used the cancer to burn out of us the selfishness that so pervaded our lives, the unbelief that kept us weak in our faith. We had to come to utter dependance on God in order to see that He is and always will be faithful.
As for the supernatural part. I know my weaknesses. The selfish side of me wanted to cave in and go to bed for days and hide from the world…etc. And I almost came to that as I still had to keep up with my work outside the home, drive my husband for his daily radiation appts and chemo every three weeks, clean up after his countless accidents after trying to eat only to have his stomach reject the food, travel to the pharmacy endlessly to purchase medicine to help him keep his food down, etc., among many other hardships that won’t be mentioned here.
I eventually came to what some would term a “crisis of belief”. My strength was gone. I could not keep my mind focused. I was desperate for rest and relief but there was none to be had. I could not go on… So I prayed to my God and told Him I could no longer handle the situation. I was dried up, exhausted, spent.
At that very moment, He provided me with the supernatural strength to get up and go get that flat tire on my car fixed and drive to the pharmacy to pick up the prescription… It did not come from me – I had nothing left. And it is hard to explain, but I experienced a rest that I have never had before or since. I rested in Him as somehow that tire got fixed and the medicine got picked up… He took over and gave me a respite that only He could provide.
I like Ray Comfort’s approach in general. He starts with the law and shows how each person has broken it countless times. He isn’t afraid to bring up the doctrine of Hell (too many Christians find that “offensive” and never bring it up. I guess they think that Jesus wasn’t PC, because He mentioned Hell more than Heaven. He stays calm and reasoned with people and doesn’t come across as shrill. People love to dismiss Kirk Cameron because he was on TV, but I appreciate that he is unapologetic about being a follower of Christ.
I hope Comfort isn’t over-promising with “undeniable” scientific proof. I don’t think we can “prove” God in the sense that most people think of proof. But I think it is pretty easy to show that an eternal God is the most likely explanation for the universe. I find alternate explanations highly unlikely.
The next question after realizing that there is a God is whether He has revealed himself to us or not. I was a skeptic until my late 20′s, but I found the evidence for the Bible to be quite compelling and I see huge flaws with other holy books. If others don’t view it that way, that is their call. I have lots of time for people who want to ask serious questions, but I don’t waste much time with people who just create strawmen out of the Bible.
I agree that faith is a critical element of the Christian life, but it is faith grounded in fact and logic. It is NOT faith despite the evidence. Just check out the book of Acts, where all of the 13 Gospel presentations fit that model. The early church never said, “Just believe” or to believe in spite of the facts.
Darling girl, why be so hard on yourself!!??? The desire to cave in and go to bed is NOT selfish at all. Why Christians have such a hard job accepting their own humanity is an unfathomable mystery to me. Every desire, every need, no matter how necessary or harmless, is seen as a spiritual weakness to be rooted out and destroyed. Loosen up! You NEEDED sleep. Your mind and body CRAVED something that was absolutely ESSENTIAL!!!!!!!
Sleep-deprivation, as any accomplished torturer knows, is a terrible experience, causing many strange things to go awry in the brain. I know- I once had to keep vigil over a very disturbed and dying man for 43 hours straight. I was staggering like a drunkard at the end of it, but still managed to make my way home and there I slept for 20 hours solid. I wasn’t being selfish in desiring sleep- I was being HUMAN! It was then that I understood why sleep-deprivation has been used as a torture device. I know I would have cheerfully admitted to any crime, any atrocity, if only I would be allowed to sleep.
You can attrribute your strength to God, and you can call it supernatural.
I can give you a rational explanation for the “supernatural’ sensation. It’s what the brain does when we’re at the end of our tether- summoning up reserves we didn’t know we possessed, and all sorts of interesting chemical processes occur at that atage of exhaustion, giving one a feeling that something outside of ourselves has taken over. Never underestimate the powers of the human brain! However, if it makes you happy to think that a deity cared for you, then go ahead.
But what of those who don’t pray, and don’t believe in any deity and yet manage to keep going under intolerable pressures?
Kevin, your response was most gallant! Very “Southern gentleman”!
Francoise,
You ask –
“But what of those who don’t pray, and don’t believe in any deity and yet manage to keep going under intolerable pressures?”
I say – as I said before, that God did gift humans with incredible strength. But He also provides His strength for those who would come to Him in their helplessness. I prefer depending on Him as opposed to depending on myself. My self will fail where God will not.
I cannot speak for those who do not believe there is a God. But I would wonder if they have any hope in those situations that leave them bereft, lonely, mourning, angry. If their only hope is themselves, where is the joy in the journey? Is there joy knowing their loved one is now at rest in His Master’s arms? Is there comfort knowing they are not alone, their Lord is with them in all things? Does the anger turn into bitterness that eats at the soul robbing them of all happiness and peace?
I know a Person who gives joy in the sorrow. He comforts in the loneliness. He turns anger into forgiveness. Everything in this world that I own, every person in this world that I love can be taken from me but I would still have everything in Christ.
Matt,
Maybe I’m an elitist?
But I value education.
And proving the existence of God is an academic debate. Can Kirk Cameron stand in the shoes of a first class biblical scholar and go toe-to-toe with an intellectual atheist like Harris or Dawkins? No.
I doubt it. We all have our limits.
Kirk Cameron may give a great testimony but he’s no Thomas Aquinas….
He’s an actor.
Big Daddy, you may be right. I don’t like to see poor reasoning used to defend the faith. But Harris and Dawkins don’t have new arguments, just a more radical style.
For example, the Kalam Cosmological Argument doesn’t require a genius to describe.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”
The literary Jesus is a riveting person.
The dozens of people most of us have come into contact with simply living out the Christian faith with a quiet integrity are impossible to discount.
When in doubt, Pascal’s wager is a great response to atheism.
Kirk Cameron leaves me cold though. He has no credibility after what he did to Julie McCullough.
Onelittleman,
Can you not forgive Kirk? He was young in his faith when all of that happened.
Brother Kev,
It’s a little like the divorced pastor in Baptist life. I can forgive, but I don’t have accept him as a spiritual leader and spokesman for Christ.
It struck me as odd that he went to all the rest of the cast to try and make things right with them, but he’s never publicly attempted to make things right with Julie for what he did to her. All appearances are that he thought what he did was right. He bullied the network into firing her. Someone needs to be a champion for Julie who was branded a harlot in the press. He ruined her in Jesus’ name.
Onelittleman,
I would hate for people to take what I said at 17 and hold it against me.
He apologized to the GP cast in 2000.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/tc/2003/002/1.20.html
Brother Kevin,
I agree, it would be a shame if I were evaluated for the rest of my life over things I did/said/thought at 17. I agree that what he did for rest of the cast on the set of the reunion movie was nice.
I will notice though, that Julie was not on the set of that production. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0403087/fullcredits#cast
Julie McCullough says this about the experience, “So please stop asking if I watch Kirk preach… I don’t wanna watch a guy, who had me fired from a tv show, Preach… he didn’t just throw stones at me because I had posed in Playboy, he threw Boulders… ok?
I lost alot because of that Bible beating I took from Kirk and Growing Pains tv show and I don’t give a … if it did make me famous for 15 seconds of my life… That 15 seconds wasn’t worth the public beating I took back then in my career and in my personal life.”
http://www.myspace.com/juliemccullough
It doesn’t sound like he’s attempted to make things right with her and it sounds like what he did still hurts her deeply.
I agree that Kirk is a brother, but I wouldn’t want to ever cross him.
Onelittleman,
I really don’t think Kirk is the same man he was then. I’m sure there are people who aren’t famous but feel about me the same way Julie does about Kirk. What more can he do? He was 17 and a new believer. I say we need to forgive.
Well, Marie, of course I can’t speak on behalf of all atheists, but I can tell you that the last demon in Pandora’s box was no accident! If hope keeps you going, then good for you. But I prefer to live in grounded reality. I have not the faintest desire to ever meet most of my family again, in this life or in the (probably) non-existent next, so imagining them being held in God’s arms doesn’t enter into it. If God wants them so badly, he’s jolly well welcome to the lot of them.
As for the trials and sorrows that afflict us all, it doesn’t bother me one iota if a God exists or not. I have developed a strong character through many adversities, and can also rely upon my husband and friends. OK, I hear you saying, but what happens to Francoise when her hubby and all her cronies are deceased? The answer is- I’ll battle on til the end, fighting to hang onto my life with all the determination I’ve always had. I’ve been clinically dead, and death holds no horrors of hell and no hope of Heaven for me. I almost died at the age of 9, ( they were arranging the funeral) and my strength of will enabled me to live to fight another day. Cancer got me in my 40s, but I stood up to it, even when the prognosis was VERY bad, and told it to shove off. I’m one of life’s survivors, a product of an interesting gene combo which sees me through thick and thin. Nothing to be proud of, just random chance, ie, an accident of birth.
By the way, a propos of your feeling guiilty and “selfish” because you badly needed sleep, would you also believe that the starving inmates of Belsen were “selfish” because they craved food? Just a thought….
I feel absolutely no need for a deity in my life. Not when I’ve been mourning, angry, in war zones, on Mt Everest, whatever. “God” just isn’t there, any more than is Buddha, Vishnu, Bacchus, Osiris, et al. And no, this does not make me miserable, as I’m often accused of feeling. ( How I wish Christians would desist from that very annoying and very arrogant habit of ascribing to us infidels emotions we do not feel and deeds we do not commit!) Over to you!
Francoise, you have had quite a life! I am so thankful God has given you such an optimistic attitude. It has served you well and I pray will continue to until God has a chance to break through and get your attention. I wonder why you have been blessed with such strength when so many others have not?
As for those hungry prisoners, of course they are not being selfish to want to eat.
So, you don’t want anything to do with God and there is nothing else I can say to convince you otherwise. He will have to do the convincing. I am curious though, isn’t life a little scary knowing you have nothing else to fall back on after you have given all you have? If there is just you, and you is all there is, why are you here on this earth?
And how could someone so amazingly strong and wonderful as you not have a Creator that made you that way? You have a lot to offer, you have been through so much suffering and you have persevered!
The Lord has blessed you for a reason and I feel sure He will reveal Himself to you in His time…
“I really hate the word “unchurched”. It sounds like we’re in need of a slightly disgusting surgical procedure.”
Heheh. Good one, Francoise.
“You say it all comes down to faith, but the gospel says that the faith itself comes from God as a gift. Well, so far “God” has seen fit in his awesome wisdom NOT to grant that gift to me or Geekwad, so we cannot be held acountable for that.” –Francoise
Very interesting to read your view on this. It almost sounds like you want to have the “gift.” I’ve never seen this side of this discussion from an atheist. Thanks for saying it to give something to ponder.
Life Today had an atheist on yesterday. The guy went to a bunch of churches to help Christians have an understanding. He doesn’t come at this from the point of hate the debaters seem to be. I think the book was called “I sold my soul on ebay.” I may try to check it out.
Kirk Cameron may not have a seminary degree or college degree, but he has studied some how. He doesn’t just act but actually breaks down scripture and give the meaning. I’ve only heard him a few times. I’m ok with him being Left Behind focused even when it is weird because it gives him an in.
This whole thing…saddens me.
Big Daddy Weave, you could not be more right. A passion-less gospel is no gospel at all. IMHO Trying to prove God exisits by mere facts is somewhat dumb. Theoretically It’s possible I guess…just like trying to buy one of your CD’s at Wal-Mart… I “Always” (pun intended) see the Big Daddy Weave divider thingie in the Christian CD bin (right next to Big Daddy Weaver…) and have never found any of your CD’s on the shelf.
Francoise, your statement, “I feel absolutely no need for a deity in my life. “ makes me sadder still. I am not sending you on your way but why are you here? Are you wanting to see a “God Show?” Is this mere entertainment?
Marie, your compassionate heart is awesome. Be assured He will do the convincing. Even Francoise will someday. That is a promise. Every knee will bow and every tounge will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Keep loving Jesus and everyone else too.
In Christ
Andrew \o/
Titus 2:13
Dozer,
I really benefit from the perspective that Franciose and Geek bring to Brother Kevin’s blog. Agree or not, they always bring substantive responses to Brother Kevin’s posts.
I have to admit the default to Vishnu as the “other” deity makes me laugh. They really need to bring their A game and come up with some other deity options.
Well, Dozer, I’m here because Kevin asked me to contribute. Do you have a problem with that? Do I, dare I suggest, make you a little uncomfortable with my contrariness? And what on earth is a God Show???? No, I do NOT regard this as mere entertainment. I have spent decades trying to fathom out why theists believe what they do- and it just doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. What sort of cerebral gymnastics does one have to perform to swallow the Biblical absurdities which abound throughout the OT and NT?? And what is the payoff ? You get to Heaven for believing the unbelievable? However, I’ll keep trying. And please, try not to feel sad because I think differently from you. Everyone else in the world doesn’t agree with you 100% either, hence, no cause for sadness
I’m not a betting woman, but I’ll give you 10o0:1 odds against the promise you made.
Marie, your asking me why I’m on earth implies that there has to be some actual purpose. I’m here because my parents had sex and produced me
No, life is not at all scary, when one is adaptable, as all survivors must be. I’m so thankful you don’t think those Belsen inmates were selfish! That means that you can absolve yourself of being “selfish” for having the very human desire and critical need to REST. I nursed my mother 24/24 for a year, and that was a real test of endurance, getting by on 2 hours sleep per day, if I was lucky, so I know all about that sort of exhaustion. But, as you found out, you find inner strength- you found it in God, I just dug deeper into myself. I wouldn’t want to go through it again, but if it happens, it happens. As for my being “amazingly strong and wonderful”–flattery will get you everywhere.:)
Onelittleman, I wish I could understand your message
Are you referring to Geekwad’s posts?
No, Janna, I don’t want any gift. Your God and your Jesus I find thoroughly unattractive literary characters. And having said that, I will now sit back and await the deluge….
I like Francoise and Geekwad too because they appear to have some integrity… on the surface. However I am sensing some hostility brewing which accomplishes nothing.
Francoise said a few postings ago, How I wish Christians would desist from that very annoying and very arrogant habit of ascribing to us infidels emotions we do not feel and deeds we do not commit!
I am not entirely sure but I get the general impression, that Francoise made a decision. She purposefully has decided that Christianity and other religions are not for her. Ok, then if she feels that way, I wanted to know what is her purpose here?
Does she wish to “really” discuss anything, or is her mind completely made up? Now it seems she is trying to convince Christians that those who follow Jesus Christ are mis-informed, shallow unintelligent un-thinkers? Vishnu, Jesus and Buddah are not any more Deity than the Energizer Bunny.
Am I saying she needs to go away? No. This isn’t my blog anyway, and I just visit here same as she does. What I am saying is this: I want to know her purpose? If we are simply wanting to debate to see who can out maneuver the other in thought, that is not good. If Francoise is wanting to learn and explore what real Christianity is all about, fine. However I do not see the point of continuing the endless banter.
…guard what God has entrusted to you. Avoid godless, foolish discussions with those who oppose you with their so-called knowledge. Some people have wandered from the faith by following such foolishness.
May God’s grace be with you all. 1 Tim 6: 20-21 NLT
In Christ
Andrew \o/
Titus 2:13
And Francoise…the only deluge I pray that you are subjected to is the deluge of love from a God who thinks you are His most treasured creation, and from His people who only want you to come to know the peace and joy of knowing God.
To all,
I have asked Francoise and Geekwad or anyone who feels welcome here to comment. Please respect their views because I do.
Dozer, words almost fail me. I have NEVER said that you believers are unintelligent, shallow, etc, and can’t even begin to imagine why you are putting those words into my mouth. I have no hostility brewing in me at all. In fact, I’m filled with happiness right now because I have Catzilla climbing over me and purring.
You ask why I’m here. OK, it’s because I like my own species and like to talk. I studied psychology. I try to understand why people believe what they do. Is that so hard to accept? As for my and Geekwad’s integrity- you’re in absolutely no positon to comment on that! If you don’t like what I say, then don’t read my posts- simple as that.
On what evidence do you base your assertion that I am God’s most treaured creation? Does that mean that he likes me more than he likes you? How quaint!
I liked the Biolical quote, and suggest that you obey its command. That should lower your blood pressure.
Kevin, thanks for posting that Blasphemy Challenge ( what fun!).
My understanding of the Jewish concept of blasphemy is that it’s the sin of a human being claiming to be God. ( In other words, delusional or just a plain liar.) So how does one blaspheme the “Holy Spirit”? I have never known what the unforgivable sin is, nor have I ever known anyone who could define what it is. Some say it’s attributing the works of God to Satan, but how is one to know which is which, when they’re both allegedly supernatural entities, and both able to perform “miracles”? How does one distinguish?
Yes Francoise, I do find something irritating. Your comments seem to be growing somewhat hostile. I am not going to debate whether that is intentional or unintentional.
Maybe I am having a normal reaction to the way you responded to Marie earlier.
See Marie takes the time to write about the hope that is within her. Your answer did not come out and out and say, ‘what a moron.’ But you did say you, “prefer to live in grounded reality.” It’s only a small step to connect the two ends. Your statement that you prefer living in grounded reality seems to equate to me, that you do not think Marie is living in grounded reality.
THAT assumption to me appears condescending and overtly hostile to those who choose to walk by faith. I am not into that. Your statement makes it clear to me, You aren’t trying to understand a thing. Maybe you once were but are you now?
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I hate doing this. For the record this is way outside of my “comfort zone.” In my heart I think the Holy Spirit is saying, this is what Francoise needs to see ME.
I am wrestling this over and over in my mind because on the surface this seems to be taking a huge risk. God says a wicked and perverse generation seeks a sign. I do think we qualify. However signs and wonders do follow those who place their trust in Christ. I am not some psychic. I do not claim to be a prophet. This is certainly not a trick we planned out. Yet I prayed on my drive down the mountain this evening.
Hear what the Lord says,
“This sign is given to you so that you personally can know God.”
Who’s purple glass?
NOW… Francoise, are you curious?
============
Hebrews 11 (From The Message)
The fundamental fact of existence is that this trust in God, this faith, is the firm foundation under everything that makes life worth living. It’s our handle on what we can’t see. The act of faith is what distinguished our ancestors, set them above the crowd.
3By faith, we see the world called into existence by God’s word, what we see created by what we don’t see.
4By an act of faith, Abel brought a better sacrifice to God than Cain. It was what he believed, not what he brought, that made the difference. That’s what God noticed and approved as righteous. After all these centuries, that belief continues to catch our notice.
5-6By an act of faith, Enoch skipped death completely. “They looked all over and couldn’t find him because God had taken him.” We know on the basis of reliable testimony that before he was taken “he pleased God.” It’s impossible to please God apart from faith. And why? Because anyone who wants to approach God must believe both that he exists and that he cares enough to respond to those who seek him.
7By faith, Noah built a ship in the middle of dry land. He was warned about something he couldn’t see, and acted on what he was told. The result? His family was saved. His act of faith drew a sharp line between the evil of the unbelieving world and the rightness of the believing world. As a result, Noah became intimate with God.
8-10By an act of faith, Abraham said yes to God’s call to travel to an unknown place that would become his home. When he left he had no idea where he was going. By an act of faith he lived in the country promised him, lived as a stranger camping in tents. Isaac and Jacob did the same, living under the same promise. Abraham did it by keeping his eye on an unseen city with real, eternal foundations—the City designed and built by God.
11-12By faith, barren Sarah was able to become pregnant, old woman as she was at the time, because she believed the One who made a promise would do what he said. That’s how it happened that from one man’s dead and shriveled loins there are now people numbering into the millions.
13-16Each one of these people of faith died not yet having in hand what was promised, but still believing. How did they do it? They saw it way off in the distance, waved their greeting, and accepted the fact that they were transients in this world. People who live this way make it plain that they are looking for their true home. If they were homesick for the old country, they could have gone back any time they wanted. But they were after a far better country than that—heaven country. You can see why God is so proud of them, and has a City waiting for them.
17-19By faith, Abraham, at the time of testing, offered Isaac back to God. Acting in faith, he was as ready to return the promised son, his only son, as he had been to receive him—and this after he had already been told, “Your descendants shall come from Isaac.” Abraham figured that if God wanted to, he could raise the dead. In a sense, that’s what happened when he received Isaac back, alive from off the altar.
20By an act of faith, Isaac reached into the future as he blessed Jacob and Esau.
21By an act of faith, Jacob on his deathbed blessed each of Joseph’s sons in turn, blessing them with God’s blessing, not his own—as he bowed worshipfully upon his staff.
22By an act of faith, Joseph, while dying, prophesied the exodus of Israel, and made arrangements for his own burial.
23By an act of faith, Moses’ parents hid him away for three months after his birth. They saw the child’s beauty, and they braved the king’s decree.
24-28By faith, Moses, when grown, refused the privileges of the Egyptian royal house. He chose a hard life with God’s people rather than an opportunistic soft life of sin with the oppressors. He valued suffering in the Messiah’s camp far greater than Egyptian wealth because he was looking ahead, anticipating the payoff. By an act of faith, he turned his heel on Egypt, indifferent to the king’s blind rage. He had his eye on the One no eye can see, and kept right on going. By an act of faith, he kept the Passover Feast and sprinkled Passover blood on each house so that the destroyer of the firstborn wouldn’t touch them.
29By an act of faith, Israel walked through the Red Sea on dry ground. The Egyptians tried it and drowned.
30By faith, the Israelites marched around the walls of Jericho for seven days, and the walls fell flat.
31By an act of faith, Rahab, the Jericho harlot, welcomed the spies and escaped the destruction that came on those who refused to trust God.
32-38I could go on and on, but I’ve run out of time. There are so many more— Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, the prophets….Through acts of faith, they toppled kingdoms, made justice work, took the promises for themselves. They were protected from lions, fires, and sword thrusts, turned disadvantage to advantage, won battles, routed alien armies. Women received their loved ones back from the dead. There were those who, under torture, refused to give in and go free, preferring something better: resurrection. Others braved abuse and whips, and, yes, chains and dungeons. We have stories of those who were stoned, sawed in two, murdered in cold blood; stories of vagrants wandering the earth in animal skins, homeless, friendless, powerless—the world didn’t deserve them!—making their way as best they could on the cruel edges of the world.
39-40Not one of these people, even though their lives of faith were exemplary, got their hands on what was promised. God had a better plan for us: that their faith and our faith would come together to make one completed whole, their lives of faith not complete apart from ours.
================
In Christ
Andrew \o/
Titus 2:13
Dozer, all gregarious freethinkers eventually come across Christians who want to psychoanalyse us. It seems to work like this: If we can’t force them into our belief system by threats of Hellfire, or promises of post-mortem rewards, we’ll attack them on a personal level.
Jews don’t. Hindus don’t. Buddhists and Sikhs don’t. This trait seems to be confined to members of your religion. I find it somewhat amusing, having my character picked over by someone who’s never met me, and who lives thousands of miles away in a very different culture.
Where I live, plain speech is prized as a virtue. Americans seem to value “niceness.” What I said to Marie was, if you read it carefully, a propos of the myth of Pandora’s Box. If you know anything at all about Greek mythology, you will understand what I meant by “the last demon” and “grounded reality”. It was not an attack on Marie. Do you really think I would address someone as “Darling girl”, and commend her for her efforts, if I felt hostile towards her? I mean, come on!
If Marie was in any way offended by my speech, I think she’s mature enough ( after what she’s had to endure!) to demand an apology. If so, I will be only to happy to apologise, as no offence was intended.
But of course, you may think that a person who’s so OBVIOUSLY hostile,
and whose integrity is open to doubt, wouldn’t be able to apologise.
Why are you so irritated? Well, I, too, can analyse. However, as this is a public forum, I will summon up my last dregs of whatever integrity I ever possessed, and desist from embarrassing you.
Please tell me more about Jephthah! I just love people who burn their own daughters alive! And Abraham, a lying, incestuous opportunist of the first rank, who prostituted his own wife for substantial financial gain. I’m sure I can learn soooo much from these characters.
Are you trying to get me to be “wicked and perverse”, by asking you for a sign? If so, the answer is No thanks. No signs needed.
Holy vache, quite a lot of volume since my last visit.
BDW: THAT’S where I’ve seen Cameron! I knew he was an ardent believer, but I couldn’t recall the context I learned that. It was in relation to Left Behind. Thanks! I’d very much like to have a discussion about Left Behind sometime, but I think it’s getting crowded enough in this particular thread. I think Left Behind is a very unfortunate and damaging influence on the USA right now.
Mark: I would be satisfied with *any* independently reproducible experiment. I think that is a completely reasonable expectation of anything that exists. Of course, that is impossible because there is no way to make a falsifiable hypothesis when it comes to God.
I’d be willing to entertain the possibility on much less. So far all I have is the testimony of extremely biased humans (You rarely hear, “I believe in God. He’s okay, I guess.”) which has been encouraged by very powerful organizations. Some of the most powerful in the world, who’s power is drawn from the continued belief of their members. They *must* promote these strange beliefs whether they are true or not, or cease to exist. There are any number of other groups of humans making exactly the same sort of mutually exclusive claims. And when you get down to it, no two humans WITHIN any group make exactly the same claims. This is far from what I need to entertain the possibility for longer than the length of a discussion.
I would also be pretty convinced were I to wake up in the afterlife.
Kevin, I asked you why you chose A over B. You said, “I didn’t choose A; A chose me!” That is a rather convenient equivocation.
Francoise: Far be it from me to cramp your womanly groove, but it’s not as black and white as that. Women and men are specialized differently. For example, women do not endure all pain better than men. Men are specialized to be insensitive to injury to the skin. to heat and cold, etc. Women are specialized to endure “visceral” internal pain, damage to organs, etc. The amount of insensitivity varies with the menstrual cycle; I forget exactly how but I seem to recall that it is not organized mercifully. (most sensitive when there is the most discomfort?)
Interesting comparison between the Australians and Americans. I have always thought that Americans valued bluntness while Canadians valued “niceness”. I’ve been saying for a few years that (referring to the governments) Australia is trying to out-America the Americans. Censorship, political rigidity, crazy anti-terrorism laws, etc. No offense intended; you don’t strike me as a fan of Howard.
Neil: I am not familiar with the book of Acts, could you give some examples of what you consider evidence?
Dozer: I make no apologies: yes, I consider this entertainment. But I also feel like its useful. Maybe I’ll convince someone who’s on the fence. Maybe I’ll make a true believer see atheism differently; hopefully not for the worse, but I admit I don’t always try very hard. Maybe I’ll meet some cool people and we’ll have more wide-ranging discussions.
I’ve very much enjoyed talking to everyone who’s asked me to email them. I can be reached as kevin_spammed_me whereat mkp.ca.
Also, Buddha is not in any sense a deity. I really dig secular Buddhism. “Try this, it might bring you peace,” is a much better approach than “Try this or BURN IN HELL!” The Scientologists also invoke their own version of hell to try to win converts. Just sayin’…
Have to admit, I’m surprised and disappointed in your attitude towards Fran; I’m WAY more abrasive! Don’t I get any credit?
I know where she’s coming from, I also feel sad when people attribute their greatest achievements to God. It is at least a half-assed sort of humility, so that’s kinda good, but it its sad that they don’t recognize their own strength. I guess its functionally equivalent though, whether you’re drawing strength from yourself or from God. After all, no matter where you go, there you//God are/is.
I also can’t help but see the humour in the idea that the creator of all that was, is and ever will be personally intervenes to help his followers score sweet home appliances. Sorry, Marie.
Sigh, sorry for the double-post, but I want to ask… Isn’t the idea that God takes such an interest in the minutia of our lives a sort of hubris? I hate how all religion casts Man as the center of the Universe. The conclusions that idea leads one to are dangerous.
Helllllooooo! I was not offended in any way by Francoise’s remarks. Jesus Christ is Who lives in me. My life is His and so Marie cannot be offended.
Thank you, Dover for being protective of me and for taking the time to post all of those faith verses. I have looked at this opportunity to converse with a non-Christian as a way to build my own faith. I do not assume anything about Francoise’s life. She seems quite happy in her beliefs and I am convinced that only the LORD Himself will be able to convince her otherwise.
Meanwhile, I am getting an education on how non-Christians think. It has been very enlightening for me!
Because of Francoise, I will be better equipped when the LORD gives an opportunity to witness to a non-Christian. I am grateful for her honesty and sharing from her heart. She can also help us Christians to change our ways so that the world sees the LORD and not individuals – by letting us in on how we look to the world.
In the LORD’s High Priestly Prayer in John 17, Jesus prays that we would be one as He and the Father are one. Christ in us as ONE BODY is our only hope that the world will see the LORD in all His glory.
We cannot afford to be offended. The LORD’s Name is at stake. We are here for His sake, and His sake only!
Geekwad,
Welcome back.
You may not believe in an active interventionist God, who is very passionate for His creation and involved in our daily life. However God taking such an interest in the minutia of my life is a very comforting concept to me. Scripturally it’s not an exaggeration at all. No I can’t say at the moment of my conversion I thought a talking donkey was believable. I don’t know all things. I only see dimly this side of heaven. However I have seen enough to be convinced to say I believe all of the bible, talking donkeys, serpents, burning bushes, fiery clouds and a literal six days to create everything, because I have seen HIm intervene in my life. I don’t understand it all, but I believe the personal caring God I have learned to trust.
I really believe He knows me from the number of hairs on my head, and He put my DNA together and He knew you and formed you in your mother’s womb.
Francoise, Peace, -k?
Let me be perfectly clear.
I am certain You do not want to understand why we choose to follow Jesus.
===============
Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:11-12
I recognize that you were not offended. May His reputation continue to be glorified by your life!
\o/
Dozer, I’m sorry I called you Dover!
no problem Marie.
Hi Marie- I’m glad you posted, as I never intended to hurt you in any way, and resent being told that I did. One of my very dearest friends, Lydia, is a devout born-again Christian, and I think of her as my sister. Hence, Dozer’s insinuation that I think believers are stupid was waaaaaay off the track! Hoo-boy! How wrong can a person be??!
Lydia and I have been through an awful lot together and have stuck by each other for countless years. I love her dearly and would lay down my life for her. A beautiful personality, and a beautiful face that reflects that personality. I wish I could post a pic of her- she looks like a Renaissance angel! She is truly blessed- she can eat like a horse a never gain a gram of weight!
Dozer-you’re at it again. Now you’re calling me a liar, as well as someone with hostility issues and little, if any, integrity. Are you feeling unwell, by any chance? Do you think that you’re doing Jesus Christ a service by slamming into me, i.e, demonstrating your zeal for the Lord?
OK, if it makes you happy to channel a sign to this wicked and perverse pagan, go ahead and tell me about purple glass. I dare say that you’re referring to that which has manganese in it?
I’ve formed several views as to why people believe certain things. Because they want to, because it makes them feel safe in what can be a a very insecure world, because their brains are pre-wired for mystical experiences, because they have issues with their fathers ( most worshippers worship a male deity) because it means that they can lay down their burdens at the feet of an all-powerful entity, and he/she/it can take the load, and so on. Plus, there is an element of self-interest in avoiding Hell and obtaining Heaven. I dare say that there would be little incentive to believe without those two very powerful inducements.
But how do believers cope with the absurdities of their holy books? That’s what really puzzles me. If I thought that believers were ignorant and stupid, it wouldn’t be as baffling as it is. But believers, like most of us, are sane and intelligent. I make no distinction between an American Christian , whether living in the Appalachian mountains, or in a NY penthouse, believing in talking serpents and donkeys, and an Indian worshipper in Benares or Calcutta, sticking their fingers into the idol of a bull and thinking that their prayers will be thereby answered. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask why and how sane and intelligent people perform these actions and believe these things.
I’ve been asking this for a long time. I will go on asking until someone gives me an understandable answer.
Kevin, I await a reply! I know you’re a busy boy, but would like an answer when you can finally drag yourself away from Starbucks!
Francoise,
The reason I pray is because it works. I may not always like the answer but it does. I have had God do amazing things in and through me. I can’t take any credit for them.
BTW, you will like the post for tomorrow. It is right up your alley!
Geekwad, me ol’ Commonwealth mate, I was waiting for someone to take the bait about women, and was not surprised that you were the only one. Well done! I was laying bets that someone would tell me that women are to be subject to men, being the weaker vessel, and all that sort of thing. Also, are you psychic, or something ?
How on earth did you twig that I can’t stand Crawler Howard??? Hehee. I could go on and on about that droob, but it would have to be written on asbestos. Sadly, the opposition doesn’t have much credibility. I will say this for our PM, he runs the economy brilliantly. We’re having record growth here, with low unemployemnt and low inflation. It’s his grovelling to George ( he who has a direct line to the Almighty) Bush which I can’t abide.
Well, Oz has always had censorship, so which particular censorship are you referring to? We’ve loosened up a LOT since my youth! Booksellers used to get prison for selling McCarthy’s “The Group”- now you can find copies at any (usually Christian) op shop- which you may call thrift stores. Yes, we’ve come a loooong way since then! I don’t think our anti-terror laws are anywhere near as paranoid as the USA’s!!! “Political rigidity”- what does that mean?
In USA, Canadians are viewed as “Americans with good manners”, so I was laughingly told by my Californian friends. Well, never once in USA did I meet anyone who was rude, and I’ve travelled the USA quite a bit. The Yanks, bless their hearts, found me a bit of a challenge with my accent and blunt manner, and there were quite a few cultural shocks ( like tipping) but the USA remains one of my fave spots, on a par with India. Why? Because of the diversities of peoples, and the religiousness of both countries. Fascinating. Coming from a country where 11% of the population attends church ( acording to the latest stats) seeing religion practised so passionately in other countries was a profound and amazing shock.
Why don’t you email me more often?
Bye for now from God’s most treasured creation ( as if!)
Kevin, I’m salivating already. Pant, pant!
I asked about the test for prophecy. The OT prophets got themselves killed if their prophecies failed to eventuate. Actually, that’s not a bad idea, and the first on my list would be Sylvia Browne, who preys on grieving, bereaved people and takes their cash ( $700 per hour!!!) with the cold-bloodedness of a shark. Worse than a shark! A shark, after all, is a valuable part of the ecology and the oceans would be putrid without their valuable services! She told the parents of Shawn Hornbeck that he was dead, and where they would find his body. Well, Shawn was found alive and well in January. I’m surprised that in a country so litigious as USA that his parents haven’t slugged that vile creature for hefty damages. But I digress.
When a prophecy refers to far, far distant times, how are the people in the prophet’s time to know whether he speaks truly or not? “John”, who cribbed the Book of Revelation, is believed by some to be raving about our time. Personally, I think he was off his skull on an exceptionally potent hallucinogen, but that’s beside the point. If he was fortelling something that would occur in 2,000 years’ time, how were his contemporaries to judge if he were speaking the truth or not?
Francoise,
I won’t defend the quacks that our out there today. If you really have a vision or word from God then it should come true. I don’t believe God speaks the way He did to prophets anymore.
He speaks to us through the Bible, prayer, The Holy Spirit, Circumstances and other people. But everything must line up with the Bible.
Um, yes, but my question was to do with prophets who foretold events waaaaay in the future. How did their contemporaries judge their veracity?
And what is the Holy Spirt? I have never understood who or what it/she/he is.
Francoise,
The Holy Spirit has been since the beginning. It is God’s Spirit. The Holy Spirit came and went based upon God’s grace in the Old Testament. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit for all believers after He left. That was good for us! Because of the Holy Spirit I have God living in me. Now when I sin I grieve the Holy Spirit and must confess my sins and get right with God. But the reason I see God at work is because He lives in me through His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit also gave me spiritual gifts that I use in my ministry such as teaching/preaching, evangelism, leadership, and faith.
Again, how did their contemporaries judge their veracity, which had to be 100%??
The Holy Spirit- what is it? A personality trait of the divine? An energy? A thoughtform? I honestly don’t know what you visualise when you talk of it. Can you explain it in more concrete terms?
I’m not Kevin and I probably don’t understand the Holy Spirit as well as he does, but it goes against my personality type to let your question hang in mid-air as it has most of the day…
Jesus paid the price for our sin. By the shedding of His blood He cleansed us (believers) of all unrighteousness thereby reconciling us to God to regain what was lost in Eden (intimate fellowship). He cannot know man intimately while man is still in his sins – only the provision the Son made will allow for that. So the cleansing makes Christians a Holy Habitation for His Spirit to dwell within us.
God is made up of three Persons in ONE: the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit. While all three dwell within (John 14:23) as ONE, it is the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin, teaches, comforts. He is the One that puts ckecks within our own spirits to guide us in doing the Father’s will. He is the One that makes the Bible make sense to His followers. He is the One who can put a scripture in your head (spirit) when you are faced with a difficult situation and may not know how to proceed.
A Christian must choose to hand over complete control of their life and all of their “rights”, etc., in order for the Spirit to work His will through us. And while this may sound like slavery to some, it is, without a doubt, the most freeing thing a person can do.
God bless you Francoise!!!
Marie
Well, Marie, thanks for that. I always understood that the noun used to describe the Holy Spirit was feminine – can you or anyone elaborate on that?
A triune God is nothing new, I’m afraid- many pagan religions were familiar with trinities.
But to continue, are you saying that the Bible only makes sense if you have this spirit? It reminds me of what the adorable Mark Twain once said, that he wasn’t bothered by the bits he couldn’t understand, but was GREATLY troubled by those he could
Let me ask a question- does this “Spirit” enable you to uncritically believe the incredible? That is, absurdities like talking donkeys and dead people climbing out of their graves? Does this spirit somehow operate so that you see these crazy stories as metaphors, rather than literal facts? And, seeing them as metaphors, you comprehedn their hidden meaning? I hope I’m asking clearly!
BTW, how is your husband these days?
Francoise,
The way I understand it, God has no gender. He is All in all. I think the reason we call God HIM is because He made Adam in His own image and we call Adam him. Woman came out of Adam. However, I believe God made men and women after His image and therefore there is a side to Him that is reflected in us women. The nurturing, protective, relating side that He has blessed us with is definitely like Him. But I do not think the Holy Spirit is feminine. The Holy Spirit is all things God.
Yes, the Bible only makes sense if you are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. The Bible was God-breathed into men who wrote it down. Only those who possess God can understand its statutes to their fullest intention. However, God doesn’t give understanding all at once. A baby Christian may only understand the surface meaning of the Bible but as he or she grows in the Lord, a deeper understanding will come. And even a strong Christian may have trouble with some scripture; the Spirit will either give understanding or peace that some things are high above human understanding.
You mentioned Jepthah in one of your comments above. To this day, I do not like reading that story even though I do every year. I don’t understand it. it does not make sense to me as yet. I don’t know that it ever will…
Yes, the Spirit does enable me to “uncritically believe the incredible”. As Kevin mentioned above, God has shown Himself faithful to me and my family in too many circumstances that were beyond human control for me not to believe. I believe every word of the Bible literally.
I have a good friend that prayed over a man that fell from a multi-story building to his death and the man came back from the dead in the Name of Jesus. My own experience has been that when I believe God for everything, He is faithful to provide.
My life depends on One “who climbed out of the grave” except, He did not climb, He arose triumphant over death and sin.
My husband is standing beside me as I type – completely healed of a cancer no one expected him to survive, not even his doctors. Hallelujah, Praise the LORD!
Maybe Kevin can answer the other questions you have.
Francoise,
The only thing I can tell you is the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost as some call Him is the power of God living in every follower of Jesus. The Holy Spirit is at work around us at all times. The Holy Spirit reveals Himself to people before they accept Christ. I have never made someone become a follower of Jesus. The Holy Spirit revealed Himself to the person and I just happened to be the one helped the person become a follower of Jesus.
The Holy Spirit may be moving in your life right now.
Whew! At long last, an explanation! Sorry, I should say TWO explanations!- thanks to both of you. I’m trying to wrap my head around it, but at least now I have some idea of what you mean when you refer to it. Part of the problem which you will have witnessing, Marie, and which you will have reaching us heathens, Kevin, is that you speak a foreign language. ( Well, Kev, you HAVE asked us infidels many times how to reach the – uh -”unchurched” ( shudder) and there you see an example. ) You talk of the Holy Spirit and all sorts of things amongst yourselves, and to people like me, you could just as well be speaking Venusian for all the sense it makes. I’ve concluded that it’s an entirely subjective and inner experience which transcends mortal language. It has the same reality as a dream does, but is as intangible.
Now, Kevin, let’s have a little chat about those prophecies about which I’ve been nagging at you, shall we? …..nag nag nag -if you don’t have an answer, fine. Just tell me yea or nay and I’ll quit bugging you.
Marie, that’s fantastic that your hubby survived. I can’t even begin to imagine losing mine, but I dare say that the odds are that one day I’ll be a widow. Hubby says he keeps the insurance policies deliberately low, so I won’t be tempted to knock him off and run away with a toy boy
I told him of some “black widows” I met in the police force, and I think that scared him 
This post – or is it a thread? – has been interesting in many ways. 3 years ago, the loveliest woman you can imagne befriended me whilst I was in USA, and we took an instant liking to each other, and have corresponded since then. Last visit, November 2006- Jan 2007, I was with her and her family- absolutely beautiful people, who treated me like a long-lost daughter and took me to all sorts of fantastic places. They are devout Christians, though of what denomination, if any, I have no idea. Who cares, anyway? Point is that they’ve spent their lives living for the welfare of others, and being elderly hasn’t stopped them. I received word last week that their only son had been killed in a freak accident. It just about wiped me out to hear that.
And then I think of those 5 scoundrels who raped and butchered little Anita Cobby, and will probably live well into their 90s on the taxpayers’ funds, and creeps like Sylvia Browne, raking in the cash by preying on the bereaved, and I I think the fellow in Ecclesiates had the right idea. We live in a world where nothing seems to make much sense.
Kevin, a propos of your comments about when you commit sins, what’s the point of having to confess them, if the death of Jesus cancelled the debt, so to speak?
As I understand it, the crucifixion meant that if you “accepted Christ”, then all your sins have been blotted out of existrence for eternity. So why bother about confessing them?
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