Why Won’t God Heal Amputees?
I saw this site last night. The man who wrote it obviously doesn’t like Christians. He asks 10 Questions beginning with:
- Why won’t God heal amputees?
- Why are there so many starving people in the world?
- Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people?
- Why does the Bible contain so much anti-science nonsence?
- Why was God such a huge proponent of Slavery in the Bible?
- Why do bad things happen to good people?
- Why didn’t any of Jesus miracles leave any evidence behind?
- How do you explain the fact that Jesus never appeared to you?
- Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood?
- Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians?
OK, I will try to answer them:
God could heal amputees, cancer, hunger and everything else if he wanted but there is suffering in this world for one reason–SIN. I hate for it to be such a Biblical answer but that is the reason. The good things I get in my life are not because I have done anything good–it is because of God’s Grace.
I have no problem with Jesus not showing himself to me in person. But I have seen Jesus in other people. I’ve seen God in nature and in the way God’s people help those in need. I don’t believe Jesus said to eat his actual body or blood. It is a representation. But I guess those who are deceived will find anything they can to fault God.
The one question I agree with him on is # 10. It is a shame that followers of Jesus can’t keep their marriages together. Again it is because of our sinful hearts that people can’t make their marriages work. We can’t blame God for our our sinful hearts. I think it takes more faith to believe there is no God than to admit that we humans are fallible and need a supreme being to rely on. I’ve never seen God personally but He has radically changed my life and even if there was no heaven (but I know there is) I am a better person for living for Jesus than if I didn’t and lived a life of selfishness.
I have a challenge for those who don’t believe God. Ask God to reveal Himself to you. He is big enough for the challenge are you strong enough to accept that He is real?
What do you think?
Well, I certainly don’t hate Christians, but I think along those same lines, too. They’re valid questions- it doesn’t mean that hatred is behind them.
As for divorce- the OT allowed it, and modern Judaism allows it, for the very good reason that some spouses ( like my father, and a few others I could mention ) are, quite simply, utterly intolerable. Being yoked to a violent, raving, selfish psychopath is NOT a marrriage.
I am very good friends with a Catholic priest, a lovely, kind, and very realistic and pragmatic chap who’s seen a lot of the world and its ways. A friend of mine, let’s call him Terry, was also a devout Catholic, yoked in marriage to a fiend of a woman who gambled away all his earnings, flaunted her lovers in his face, never contributed anything to the house, and threatened to murder their children if he ever tried to stop her doing what she wanted. He was in despair, because, as a Catholic, he was hitched for the duration. As a Catholic, he couldn’t beat her or deny her sustenance, and he dared not risk his children being harmed. God, he firmly believed, had fated him for this Hellish existence for reasons known only to the Divine Mind.
Fr Tom pointed out to Terry that what he had was no marriage, and advised him to make a clean break. He left it up to Terry as to whether that would mean a separation or divorce.
Eventually, Terry divorced and married a widow. They are blissfully happy. Terry believes that he had to live in Hell for 40 years before he went to Heaven. If you knew his first “wife” (in name only) you’d agree with him. I think we need flexibility. Marriage should not be a prison for innocent partners, should it? When one’s doing all the effort, and rewarded with adultery and abuse, it’s no partnership.
OK God, reveal yourself to me. There, I said it. Are you happy now?
Aw, Fran beat me to God. Let me know how that works out for you.
I was pretty young when I started to wonder. The last time I prayed couldn’t have been past grade 2. I had accepted what I was told without analysis, but that would not turn out to be my way. However, I had a very open mind (I hope I still do today) and that was probably God’s undoing.
I started trying to rationalise all the conflicting beliefs I encountered, trying to build a complete model that included them all. Maybe there were lots of gods, maybe humans were created multiple times by their patron dieties all over the planet. The Christian god said this wasn’t so, but he would say that, wouldn’t he? He also said I wasn’t supposed to worship those other gods (that he still said didn’t exist) and he also said there were entire cities outside the Garden of Eden when his children fell from grace, so I felt he was sort of sending mixed messages. But, the more details I learned, the more unworkable it became. Even within what appeared at first to be a monolithic set of claims, I started to see that there was a huge spectrum of conflicting beliefs.
I could see this wasn’t going to work. So, I asked God to help me see the truth. Looking back, it seems like I asked him every day for a couple of months, but knowing the way childhood distorts your perception of time, it was probably barely a week. Meanwhile, I started removing elements from my model. Even then I had enough exposure to science to be quite confident that the Earth certainly did not rest on the back of a giant tortoise. Furthermore, it wasn’t the centre of the Universe; I had seen a working orrery, and I had recently looked through a telescope at the moons of Jupiter. (That was the most “religious” experience of my young life.) The more I removed from my model, the more it made sense.
Though I was having doubts, I was *willing* to believe. I was looking hard. I was still pretty uncritical. I mean, we had this cordless phone that would ring randomly with no pattern for a while, and then start acting like a sane phone again. I secretly suspected that some unseen agent was trying to send me messages. Not seriously, but enough that I didn’t like to be alone when it started doing its thing. Is it God? Is it aliens? Is it a dead relative?
Eventually, I stopped asking God. I wasn’t getting my answers that way. “We” never spoke again. I started to learn more about math and basic physics. The more I learned, the more it seemed to me that nothing truly infinite could exist within our Universe. God might be really, really powerful, and really, really smart, but omnipotent and omniscient? I could no longer fit that into my model. Eventually, I resolved not to believe anything I didn’t absolutely have to. That resolution has served me very well. I don’t deny everything that I don’t believe, I simply don’t make truth judgements when the outcome cannot affect me. I later learned this is similar to logical positivism.
I’m afraid it is probably too late for God, now. I can type the words you ask: God, please reveal yourself to me; but I could not mean them. Things make sense to me now. The Universe may be arbitrary, but it is not capricious. It does not bend to the will of any entity. It just is. It does not care about me, but I am at peace with it. I like to curse it, but it knows its all in good fun. It’s cool that way. Unlike some people…
Francoise,
You are my friend no matter what you do. I do pray God will reveal Himself to you.
Geekwad,
Thanks for sharing your story. I don’t think it is too late. It never is. My wife’s dad became a follower of Jesus in his 60’s. I pray you will reconsider my challenge.
Will you likewise ask the FSM into your heart?
Who is the FSM?
I am too hasty, as usual. In my glib way, I was asking you to consider what you are asking of me from my point of view.
The reason I told my story was to demonstrate that I HAVE asked God to reveal himself. Not once, but many times, with an open mind, with an open heart, and with the unimpeachable sincerity of a child. He did not.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster, who guides our lives with his invisible, noodley appendages.
Geekwad,
You need to read the book I’m reading now called The Organic God.
The author talks about how God speaks to us in different ways. I really think it would be beneficial to you.
While It is true that divorce is higher in the Bible Belt it doesn’t necessarily mean followers of Christ are divorcing at a higher rate than non-followers. Dr. Scott Stanley (University of Denver), after looking at Barna’s surveys (where the original support for the Christians-divorce-at-the-same-rate came from) reached the following conclusions:
The factors driving the higher divorce rate have to do with religious affiliation. These factors include: marrying at a younger age, increased poverty, and fewer opportunities for economic development. Youth and poverty, in other words, play a larger role in the divorce rates than religious affiliation.
What constitutes “religious affiliation” is questionable. It is not unusual in the Bible Belt to find people who claim Christianity that Kevin and many of his minister friends would not recognize as “true believers”. Dr. Stanley reports that when “Christianity” is measured by frequency of attendance at religious activities instead of self report (”Sure I’m a Christian”
the following statements about married couples appear to be true:
They have higher levels of commitment to the marriage, higher levels of marital satisfaction, less thoughts/talk of divorce, and lower levels of negative interaction with one another.
I recall other research articles about couples who frequently attend religious services - regardless of what religion they practice - that make similar statements about marital satisfaction (and by inference, divorce rates), but I can’t put my hands on the articles just now. Dr. Stanley’s research can be found at http://www.prepinc.com/main/Articles.aspx.
It’s one thing for a pollster to take a survey; it’s another to understand the data. I think Barna simply got it wrong.
Thanks Bowden,
We all might need therapy after this thread!
Sorry, the second paragraph should read, “The factors driving divorce rate have little to do with religious affiliation.”
Kevin,
Your original answer in your post of “sin” is right on. Most people, Christ-followers included, don’t take into account that all of the dysfunction in or world is a result of the fall (Gen 3). Jesus’ ultimate mission was to restore what His original intention was - Eden…
[...] Pharisee) there is an interesting discussion about why bad things happn in this world. (Go and read Why Won’t God Heal Amputees?) In it a skeptic asks several questions about the nature of Christianity; the last question is Why [...]
I think it is amazing that we serve a God who loved us so much that He didn’t make us robots and gave us an opportunity to choose to love Him just as He has chosen to love us. With that choice we can either follow God’s way or not. When we choose not to follow God’s way and look to our own understanding, it results in a lot of difficult things.
We all create gods as we make our choices. But that doesn’t mean God doesn’t exist. We can try to create a world where He doesn’t exist, but the evidence remains. The author above asks why doesn’t any evidence of Jesus’ miracles remain? There does. Millions of changed lives through thousands of years. Nothing explains the growth and continuation of Christianity in spite of the horrors of humanity other than its truth. And, Christ’s resurrection can be deduced from quite a bit of evidence, even after 2000 years.
Oh, and specifically, as to your answer of sin… I’d add the sin of unbelief…
I would agree that just because these questions are being raised doesn’t mean the guy hates Christians. I didn’t see the YouTube so maybe that impression is in there. All of the questions except maybe #4 are asked by Christians at some point. #6 seems to be the theme in many of his questions. I think that this is one of the hardest things for people to grasp about God. They either want to see Him as good and lovely, or as the rule maker for no fun or understanding. I believe that these questions aren’t asked unless one is seeking and the seeking could last for years and years.
Janna,
I didn’t say he hated Christians. I’m sure he is seeking as all people are–they just won’t admit it. This guy is an evangelist but not for God but for the deceiver.
Good challenge you propose. I have a friend who is agnostic at best. He’s admitted to me that he’s afraid that if he asks Jesus into his heart that it might actually happen. (Huh?) Says he enjoys the freedom of not having Jesus to worry about and tie him down. (Huh?) I wish he understood the REAL freedom he would have by accepting Jesus as his savior. I’m just glad he talks to me about it.
I enjoy your blog.
There are many things in this life that we are meant to know and reside within our grasp, and there are others thoughts that is not given to man to know but reside exclusively in the mind of God alone. I had hope that my son would live with me until he was grown and become a productive member of society. When he started having serious psychological and behavioral problems relating to a form of Autism (Aspergers Syndrome) no one knew what to do. We spent years and thousands of dollars and all we knew was he had behavioral issues that would often turn violent, and explosive. We did the best we could to deal with it. There however came a day when it was apparant, that my son needed much more help than anyone could ever provide in my home. Why?
My brother and his wife had every expectation to live in their nice home rasing their kids together. They ARE dynamic Christians with many talents. Glenda sang with Clay Crosse’s sister Terri and was loved by many people. However one Friday morning, she called her husband at 9:00 to ask if they could go out that night because she didn’t feel like cooking dinner…and by 10:00 she was dead. She abruptly died at 34 leaving three kids motherless for no explicable reason. Why?
Nicole Nordeman wrote a song last year talking about a mother living for Christ and lost her baby at two months of age. Why? How is any of this fair to anyone? Especially to those who have died (to themselves) to live (for Christ)?
The fundemental problem is with the pseudo-theology of entitlement.
Jesus was preaching in a home as he often did and there was a very large crowd gathered. A paralytic was desparate and wanted to get close to Jesus to be healed. His friends feeling sympathetic dug a hole in the roof to lower this man down to Jesus. What do you think it was like when Jesus said to this man, “Your sins are forgiven.”?
God says HIS ways are Higher than our ways, and His thoughts are much higher than our thoughts. To God, the distress this man was sufferring on earth paled in significance to the distress he would face if he was to die in his sins. It was only after the reaction of the crowd that Jesus said, ‘So you will know I have authority to forgive sins, take up your bed and walk.’
Why God? is a question we may never know. We are not entitled to know all things as He knows them. Jesus does give us glimpses into who He is, and what He plans for us, so that we can KNOW that we, can trust HIM for the things we cannot see, grasp or understand. We will come to know Him in His fullness one day but on this side of eternity, we can only see glimpses, sometimes dim glimpses. However the most repeated command in the bible is, “fear not.” Once we do learn that we can trust Him, and it is not something we will just “poof” automatically do once we decide to become followers of Jesus. It is something that we must practice and learn as we walk by faith.
A lot of people talk about praying, especially on this the National Day of Prayer. Few will. I can tell you to trust Jesus, describe in infinite details how to place trust in Him, list the benefits…and I would be like a professor on TV explaining to a baby how to walk. That baby will never walk, until they learn to trust a parent, and develop and grow.
Nothing complex here. It’s not rocket science to know God. All I can give you is my witness. God has shown me enough of Himself, that I took baby steps and He proved He is trustworthy. I know I can trust Him as I live my daily life with the things I cannot possibly understand. I am a Christian, I am not God. I may never know whys. I really have no idea if my wife won’t get tired of me and divorce me tomorrow, or if my son will live or die. I don’t know a lot of things, but I do know HIM, and He has shown me His heart is good and that I can trust Him. I tell you, you can trust Him too.
In Christ
Andrew \o/
Titus 2:13
I agree with several others; those questions don’t necessarily seem like indications of hating Christians (although there may be other evidence that this person does). They are all questions that, in one form or another, I have asked myself. Some of the answers are easier to come by than others (for example, on #4, I don’t think the Bible contains a lot of “anti-science nonsense” as much as there are some people who interpret it that way), but others are things I struggle with daily, especially questions about how a good, loving, and just God allows so many innocent people to suffer. I agree with Kevin that most suffering is caused by other people making selfish or stupid choices (which is, more or less, the definition of sin), but that doesn’t really answer the question satisfactorily, because we all make mistakes. Why do my mistakes result in me maybe having a bad day, while the choices of governments, armies, and businesses cause small children to die of preventable diseases? What role do the choices I make about what to buy or how often to drive have in causing others to suffer?
For me, being a Christian is not about having all the answers. It’s about choosing to believe that God is with us in the questions, that God loves each of us deeply, and that we have a responsibility to make things right in this messy world.
TIA,
I never said he hated Christians. But he is an evangelist for the enemy.
I agree there are many tough questions that I don’t understand. I ask them a lot here. I wish it were more cut and dry. Sometimes I wish life was just about being good and having a check list. But I mess up more times than I would like to admit and I’m grateful for God’s Grace.
I don’t understand why there are starving people. But God has called me to be a part of the solution. I don’t understand why Christians can’t keep their marriages together (even if the stats are wrong–one divorce is too many) but I can help people see the need for a Biblical Marriage. I don’t care about science but I’m glad there are many Godly people who do. Sure sometimes I wish God would come hang out with me in person, but I promise you He has spoken to me in many ways.
I saw checks show up to my parents house for exact amounts they needed to pay bills. I saw the time when my dad’s car was in the shop and he went to pick it up and someone paid for it. I remember when we prayed for my mom’s breast surgery and when they did the x-ray before the surgery the lump was gone. I could go on and on. God is real and He lives in me.
For those who are seeking answers to their questions about God, His existence, this universe and our situations in life, you ought to examine the writings of a man who for many years had no belief in God and only became a convert reluctantly, and that is C.S. Lewis.
Kevin, sorry, I didn’t mean to misrepresent you. And I agree; I have also seen God provide in powerful ways. My point was that I don’t believe that faith requires having all the answers to questions like these. That’s why we call it faith.
You got it spot-on Kevin. When someone denies the reality of evil and the enemy, they tend to blame God for everything. BTW I’ve heard stories of amputees having limbs grow out, though I haven’t seen it firsthand yet. CBB
I understand Geekwad very well. I was taught that God answered prayers, and in my childlike innocence, I believed what my elders said to be true. Bitter experience proved otherwise. God was either deaf, or didn’t care, or didn’t exist. Why worship something that doesn’t respond? Why chat to anyone who doesn’t want to converse?
Ryanday- Jesus seems to have failed to accomplish his mission, particularly in the Middle East.
The world is no more dysfunctional now than it ever has been. Nature has always been “kill or be killed”- loooong before human beings appeared.
I believe that Charles Darwin found this troubling, that an all-loving and wise entity would make his planet Earth such a vicious, violent place! The “fall” didn’t cause all those talons and fangs and poison sacs, prickly weeds, earthquakes, volcanoes, etc. It’s ALWAYS been a dangerous place!!
It makes no sense to blame the product for its defects, rather than blaming the manufacturer. If your new Mitsubishi breaks down, do you rave and rant and curse it, a la Basil Fawlty, and flog the poor thing with a tree branch? No way. If you were sensible, you’d contact Mitsubishi and whine about their shoddy merchandise, wouldn’t you? If we are defective, it’s God’s fault. We are primates, and we behave like primates. We are no better, but all too often a lot worse than the other creatures with whom we live. Our days as a species are numbered, as all species are doomed to eventual extinction.
I refuse to feel guilty or wretched or miserable for being born a human being, nor will I grovel to any entity, hoping to escape the fires of Hell for the crime of being a member of our species.
The crime is not being a member of our species. God created man to be HIS child, to love and nourish and to live in perfect unity with God. The crime comitted was HIS child willfully chose to do wrong. Since that occurred all of mankind sufferred.
An all knowing God of course knew this would occur before anything was created. Does the knowledge that Children ARE going to be disobedient disuade parents from having kids? Of course not. I’d venture to say that is probably the only command of God (be fruitful and multiply) that our species has no problem with. God created us knowing we would suffer for Adam’s sin and endure all the ills for the ages since. So why did He even set creation into motion knowing that some of His creation would be lost to him?
Because there would be those of us who would choose to love Him.
Can’t make anyone love you. Isn’t it nice when somebody does of their own free will?
In Christ
Andrew \o/
Titus 2:13
It all comes down to Satan which God created. If satan didn’t exist we would all be angels bowing down to Allah.
If Allah didn’t create satan, then there would be no heaven and hell.
god does heal amputees: luke 22:47-51
A Patel,
I agree about Satan but I worship Yahweh & His Son Jesus.
If you believe that Satan exists as an evil entity, then you have to look at his alleged creator. As I said, it’s all God’s fault. He’s omniscient, right? That means he knew perfectly well what was to eventuate, yet he went ahead and did it anyway. Blame God, I say!
Y’know as a Christ follower I am ok to assign all of the blame to God…
God certainly created Satan. HE created all the things that are evil. He even created Evil. Job stated ‘Shall I only accept the things that are good?’ God sent an evil spirit to Saul… He is the creator. He created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What “The Hell” was HE thinking?
HE WAS THINKING HE WANTS TO INTIMATELY LOVE US, AND TO BE INTIMATELY LOVED BY US.
Can you make those who have no choice, truly love you? Is this a theological hurdle too high to understand? There had to be Evil for us to know good. That is why the tree called the Tree of The knowledge of Good and Evil was part of HIS creation.
Lots of people think they understand the sacrifice of the Lamb in the Old Testament to cover our sins. Did you know that the lambs usually were brought in to live in the home? They would live, eat and play and the lambs would become part of the family as they naturally would fall in love, and the lamb loving them. It’s like we do our pets. There is no doubt I love my dogs and they love me.
However for the Jew, the appointed day would come. The man would come into the house, take his family’s lamb to the temple. The man would be the one to take the knife the lamb, a lamb his family loved. It was not the priest, not a temple worker. However it was done to cover the sins of him and his house. God set the terms.
You may say, how awful. YES it was awful. The cost of sin is death, and it’s bloody, and you will grieve the personal loss. Jesus allowed himself to become the perfect sacraficial lamb to pay the ultimate penalty for the high cost of our sins… But from the very first moment of creation, it has always been about loving the lamb.
In Christ
Andrew \o/
Titus 2:13
I’m still waiting to hear about the purple glass.
Thank you, Kevin.
I had assumed you were ignoring that. I am not God and i have no idea what significance that glass has. I only obeyed. Did you have a purple glass on your computer desk then? Was there a purple glass that has some sentimental value? I don’t know. You tell me.
Never assume anything. In a previous post, when I realised that you’d gone out of your comfort zone, I said that you could divulge that sign if it made you happy . And, I guess, asking you to do so slots me right into the “wicked and perverse generation”?
The answer is “No” to both questions. I don’t think I have anything purple in the house at all. It’s not a colour which suits me or my house.
Hinduism is far older than Christianity, Bryan. Does its incredible longevity mean it’s the truth?
Just a thought.
Those are interesting questions and answers are available. But before I’d spend time on them I’d want to know if it would matter how they were answered. Is the person seriously interested, or is it their handy list of reasons justifying their position? I’ve met too many people who use questions like that as smokescreens. I used to be a skeptic and then became a Christian after examining the evidence and reasoning behind it, so I have plenty of time for people who are authentically questioning things.
Kevin,
I’ve been going through “Disappointment With God” by Philip Yancey with my church lately. It talks about and doesn’t glibbly answer three major questions:
1. Is God Hidden?
2. Is God Silent?
3. Is God Unfair?
Have you read it?
Among several points he makes is that the miracles and visible presence actually weakened faith. This was a surprising argument and he does a good job building it.
Another point he made was that God transitioned His visible presence to the Church–a risky venture because not only can we represent Him well, but we can represent Him badly and often do. Some of those questions can be answered by saying sin are the reasons, others by the failure of the church to respond and BE the presence of God in the world–feeding the hungry, ministering to the hurting, etc.
My phrase in ministry is–”Pursuing Answers to Questions of Faith & Life”
Life does give many questions–and I may never find all of them–but I’m going to pursue after those answers. So many times I don’t recognize God’s answers, when He reveals, I don’t see it or I even slap His hand away. Faith is never easy answers or easy believism–that would be shallow. I would encourage everyone to not quit or give up.
Pursuing Him,
Kelly
Francoise, I am not exclusively slotting you into a wicked and perverse generation. Anyway, did you ask for a sign? No. Did I ask for God to give me a sign. No.
However He did.
We are all part of a wicked and perverse generation of people, and God gave miraculous signs and wonders to us all. Whatever significance the purple glass has, that is between you and God. I just conveyed what He told me to let you know.
Francoise, that would be assuming that the God of the Old Testament isn’t Christian… an assumption I don’t make. Christ precedes anything Hindu… And, the existence of a God who doesn’t loves unconditionally, which is Christianity at its heart, simply doesn’t exist in any other religion.
Francoise, it seems you are admitting God exists with some of your above comments… In fact, to say that there is injustice in the world admits that there are absolutes.
A Patel, I don’t know that I agree. God gave each of the creatures created in His image a will to obey or not obey. If we chose our own way rather than His, that is the root of evil, not Satan. He is a nice scapegoat, but we are perfectly capable of falling short without him.
Dozer,please lighten up, mate. It was a gentle joke. You spoke to God and God answered in what appears to be a riddle. In your post you wrote ” Who’s purple glass?” Who’s is a contraction of “who is”, so “Who is purple glass?” makes no sense whatsoever. If you meant “Whose purple glass”, it still makes no sense. How did you receive the message- as a visual image, or from words spoken into your ear or mind?
All my drinking glasses are clear. All my windows are clear glass. I’ve just realised that there is something purple in the house- my husband uses purple folders for clients’ wills. But definitely no glass.
Did you ( or God) mean a drinking glass, or a pane of glass? Is there some Biblical reference which I don’t know about? Is purple glass a heavy metal band? I haven’t a clue.
Bryan, the OT god is anything but loving, as I never tire of mentioning. He has the mental outlook of a 3 year old chucking a tantrum, and is forever on the warpath about something. BTW, he hasn’t answered your prayers for rain. Our dams are still emptying.
Interesting about Hinduism- have you ever read the similarities between Krishna and Christ?
Francoise,
Forgive my poor grammer please. Ever see the old American TV show the Beverly Hillbillies? I live in the same Ozark Mountains and I talk a little ‘hickish.’ It was definitely a visual image and I saw a purple glass. A purple drinking glass. I don’t understand it, but I know God gave that vision so that you could witness HIM.
So your glasses are clear… was there a clear glass set on top of a folder or something so it appeared purple?
I don’t know.
And I also don’t know why you think the God of the OT is different than the NT. He has always been a loving God…. then as He is now. Deuteronomy is one of the first books of the bible. Below was excerpted from Deuteronomy 7
========
God wasn’t attracted to you and didn’t choose you because you were big and important—the fact is, there was almost nothing to you. He did it out of sheer love, keeping the promise he made to your ancestors. God stepped in and mightily bought you back out of that world of slavery, freed you from the iron grip of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know this: God, your God, is God indeed, a God you can depend upon. He keeps his covenant of loyal love with those who love him and observe his commandments for a thousand generations. But he also pays back those who hate him, pays them the wages of death; he isn’t slow to pay them off—those who hate him, he pays right on time.
========
It’s been said if God is for you, who can be against you?
But the exact opposite is just as true…
If God is against you, who can be for you?
The Ozarks- haven’t been there-yet. No, have never seen the Beverly Hillbillies.
I’ve seen Beverly Hills, though, and it was an eye-popping experience.
I would NEVER place a glass on hubby’s folders, purple or otherwise! He’d go ballistic if water were spilled on his documents
He might even terminate my employment!!
My very negative impression of the OT God is because of the numerous pages wherein he’s depicted as vengeful, (as per your above quote, and and I honestly CANNOT see how “love” can be vindictive!) and ordering wholesale massacres and enslavements. A god who demands animal and human sacrifices to appease his wrath is a complete turn-off. A god who wants a rape victim to marry her attacker is sickening. A god who punishes the pharoah instead of Abraham seems to be completely demented. I’m not saying this to be rude- it’s just how it appears to me.
This is what I’ve been asking this blog to explain- how do you reconcile the two? The cruel and despotic monster and the all-loving and forgiving father, who, nevertheless, demands a blood sacrifice before he can enter into a relationship with his creatures. Why not just forgive, and be done with it? Why all the drama? Why the insatiable need for blood?
Francoise that is an excellent question! A very deep question. I want to give you an answer as completely and thoroughly as I can. However that will take some time. I want to do a thorough job. I have a large home project (screening in my front porch) that I am doing tomorrow and church on Sunday. I hope you can bear with me.
I do not believe God was ever a cruel despotic monster. From my perspective He is and has always been a loving Father, faithful and ready to forgive. You already know that Christians believe He’s fair, righteous and His Holiness demands Justice for sin which was the shedding of blood. The shedding of blood is essential for forgiveness, but it’s not what saves us. That comes through faith in Jesus. In the Old Testament they looked forward to Jesus and his sacrifice and we look back towards it, but it was faith in Jesus that saves.
I’ll try and write back here on Monday -k? If anyone else can please go ahead and answer.
In Christ
Andrew \o/
Titus 2:13
Yes, fine. Still can’t find that purple glass.
What does -K mean?
Yes, fine about waiting til Monday - I perfectly understand the necessity of doing house chores. I just avoid them if I can
But screening is an essential one, seeing that your summer is looming, so go ahead. I don’t mind waiting. I’ve waited a long, long time to get answers. I’m patient.
Dozer, I’m from Arkansas… I know all about the Ozarks. I’m in England for now. But as we might say at home, “I’m fixin’ to go to the Philippines.”
Anyway, Francoise, have you ever considered that God is so loving that He allows us freedom, freedom to love Him or not? And, it isn’t that God is vengeful… it is that in His presence is love, and that when we are not in His presence, love is absent. Thus, hatred is present. So, when man chooses not to follow God it isn’t that God hates man, it is that man is choosing to be in the presence of the absence of love. ..
Francoise…I have a few minutes… started raining. I do not want to overly simplify this, but to really answer your question as to ‘why the need for blood?’ (I omitted your word insatiable, because that need was satisfied on the Cross) The simple answer to your question is blood is sacred. Jew could kill animals for food, but even the blood of animals was sacred. When they needed to they were to spill the blood on the ground as a sacrafice.
Also Please take a look at this Sermon by Charles Spurgeon from the 19th century. It does not answer your specific question directly, but there is a lot of information on why the blood.
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0211.htm
I hope this helps. I have to go to the store now to get some more stuff for my porch. Have a good weekend. -k?
In Christ
Andrew \o/
Titus 2:13
( oh by the way….In my part of the woods, we often will end conversations saying, “Y’all come back now, y-hear?” or “You tell your momma I said hey. ok?” and a lot of us rednecks always looking lazilly at spoken language, nowdays have also dropped the “o” now too. That is what -k? means. I guess it’s like saying “g’day” which is for “good day.” )
And Bryan…. My porch….I’m fixinta go get-r-done soon as mah brofew brangs d’truck back. He bard it to git the earl changed on da Mustang. I also lef mah dang ranch on the tailgate. Shoot.
Feeling a little closer to home?
c-ya
Bryan, what you say is very strange. I’m not in the presence of God, so my ife is one of hatred? That is, my hubby and friends and neighbours don’t count? As a matter of fact, I’m surrounded by love, and treasure my little tribe greatly. I also love my new kitten, Catzilla, who gives me endless joy as he capers around the house. Yes, even when I found him widdling on my embroidery.
Thanks, Dozer, for the lesson in linguistics et al! I teach English to migrants, and am always assuring them that no matter how they pronounce something, you can bet that the Americans ( and Scots) can be even less comprehensible!
If you ever get a BBC programme, “The Story of English” on your TV, watch it! Fascinating stuff.
BTW, I found your message on the thread about becoming numb to teacher-student liasions, and posted a response.
Still no purple glass.
When God speaks to you, how do you distinguish between what he says, and the normal chatter that goes on inside our heads all day? What’s the difference? In tone, in volume-what?
Om fair dinkum in me pestrin, cobber, ridgy-didge.
There, your first lesson in Australian English, gratis!
OOhhh, sorry, I forgot to comment on blood sacrifices. Yes, I know that blood was sacred, and for the very good reason that people knew that severe loss of blood led to death. Blood sacrifices are also meant to separate the material from the spiritual. There was the ancient belief that as an animal died, it discharged some vital energy in its shed blood, and this could be harnessed by the magician performing the rite.
It’s recommended to look at lunar cults and the worship of feminine deities, and what the spilling of blood meant to them. Menstruation, ragarded, wrongly , as “unclean” by some cults, was revered by others, as it was directly associated with fertility . It’s believed that blood sacrifices, adopted by solar-worshipping cults, were an attempt by male priests to share in the mystery of why a woman could bleed for a week without dying, whereas that “magiocal ” property was denied to men. From this, you see an adoption of feminine clothing by male priests. Too long to go into here, but worth a thought, perhaps?
Dozer:
Let us not wax TOO poetic about it. Death, even tortured death is not the ultimate penalty in this context. Hell is. While I love the story about Jesus going down to hell to kick a little ass before the resurrection, I don’t think it’s cannon, and he didn’t get the full treatment anyhow. Since then, he’s been in paradise.
I do like your explanation for the existence of evil. It does paint God as a sort of a selfish jerk (we suffer so that he can be sure we really love him?) but it is pretty neat and satisfying.
Bryan Riley:
Tee hee. Okay, so Christianity is older than a couple thousand years, because Christ (a.k.a., God) is older than a couple thousand years. Of course, you have to make the same allowances for tortured logic to the Hindus. So I guess what we’re looking at is the ages of the Universe each claims. Haven’t looked it up, but I’m willing to bet the Hindus believe in a Universe older than five thousand years. More than ten or twenty even!
But I hear your complaint. This proves nothing, because God existed BEFORE the Universe! So lets consider that. As far as we know, this is God’s first Universe. Maybe he got started late because he spent a while hitchhiking across Europe or something, but all we really know about his previous life is that he felt he didn’t have enough love in it. Meanwhile, the Hindus have Vishnu, who has created so many Universes, he probably doesn’t even realize he’s doing it anymore. Like, a whole lot of them, even for infinite Universes.
I’m sorry, but on the basis of evidence we have so far, I’m still going to have to go with the Hindus as the older religion. If you think that’s all just too silly, maybe we should just agree that religions don’t exist before they are practiced.
GW, I agree that religions are the creation of man. I believe we are the creation of God. I believe we should follow the way the Creator made for us. That makes sense. If there is a creator it makes sense to follow the creator’s way. The creator would know best for the creator’s creation. I think Jesus is that Way. And that Way was dreamed up before any man came along to dream or philosophize.
Francoise, do you see the world as loving? I hear in your writing a presumption that there either is no god or that if there is a god it is not loving. Perhaps that is because you have not experienced love at its fullest. And, becuase you haven’t experienced that kind of love you put that on God. I’m not saying that you don’t give and experience some love in your life as humans talk of love. And, I’d also say that God is very present in this world, so love is here, around us, working through many, even those who don’t believe in God. But there will come a day when God allows each person to make their final decision to choose Him or choose their own way.
Bryan, the world is an extremely complex place. I could look at a butterfly and think that it’s evidence of a loving ( and artistic) god, or I could look at that vile insect in Africa ( forget the name) which lives in human urethras, and I could take that as evidence that god either hates humans, or doesn’t give a toss about them. It all depends on one’s own perspective, which is shaped by myriad forces. You’ve prayed for rain in my part of the world, and, I guess, when you prayed, you believed god would hear. Well, the dams are still falling, so that could mean that god either didn’t hear, doesn’t care or doesn’t exist. Take your pick. Some towns now have absolutely no water left, and are relying on the trucking in of bottled supplies, and that means for the hospitals, too, so they can wash their patients. I don’t see your god displaying any concern over them. The ground is bone- dry, the animals are dying, the crops are failing…need I go on? Love doesn’t withhold life’s most precious resources from its children.
Where is the proof that your god is real and/or the only god, and furthermore that it loves? I didn’t see it showing too much concern for humanity during the tsunami and Katrina, did you? Old and young, children and pregnant women, diabetics desperately needing insulin, putrid waters breeding dangerous illnesses- it would seem that god might have wanted a bit of a cull on the population, rather than loving them!
If he can’t control the forces of nature, he can’t be very powerful. If he could, but chose not to, then he’s not worthy of our worship.
I’ve prayed for changed hearts and restored relationships, Francoise, not so much for rain. I’ve prayed for rain if it would lead to you awakening to the fact God loves you and wants you to love Him, too. But if the lack of rain and the felt futility of our lives drives you and other people in Australia to a restored relationship then I would rejoice in the lack of rain and futility.
My little girl loves chocolate and candy. So much so that she will say that she is not going to eat so that she can eat more chocolate. My love does withhold what she holds most dear, chocolate and candy. From her perspective those things are what she needs most, but as her daddy, I know a lot more about health, need, and nutrition. So I withhold. If God knows that your spiritual health requires what appears to be suffering to return to reality… then praise God!
Do you believe you know all there is to know to the point that you can say that things that appear bad in one instant are eternally evil? And, if you believe in evil, then that suggests for certain that you believe in good. That suggests you believe in absolutes. That suggests that you believe in “god” of some sort….. It all boils down to what sort of god you believe in… There is One.
Did anyone ever consider that the divorce rate is so high because people choose their own mates rather than wait on the spouse God has chosen for them? We teach our children to date when they are 12 and 13 by putting on dances where they are supposed to be couples. They are paired up way before they should be thinking of marriage. Dating one after the other when there is no purpose at all. What do they learn? How to divorce. Surely not how to be married. Naturally after 10-12 years of “dating” we think it’s up to us to choose our own spouse, afterall, we’ve got plenty of practice. Not to say a marriage between Christians won’t work out but it can be a continuous struggle when it’s not the spouse God had chosen for you. For many, it is simply easier to just give up.
Just a thought. You can tell what I think of teenage dating. Even more so, the pressure from adults for teenagers to date. Dating is a very worldy activity.
Jana, it is borne out of a culture and a lie that has been taught from the beginning of time… it is all about me…
We must carry forth the good news of the Kingdom of God…. It is about our King… we are just the Sons and Daughters of the King. But it is ultimately all about Him.
Bryan, contrary to what some people ( like my husband!) think, choccolate is NOT a necessity of life; water IS. You can withhold chockies from your daughter, and I say, fine, you’re doing what you think best for her teeth and waistline, but if you denied her water, I would denounce you as a monster and a fiend.
The brutal fact of the matter is that 2/3 of Australia is in permanent drought, the other 1/3 in semi -drought. Our tropics can be just as dry and harsh as our inland, and the coastal areas aren’t much better.
No, of course I don’t think I know all there is to know!! That attitude would cut me off from one of life’s most enjoyable activities, and that is learning.
I guess the only absolutes are that there are no absolutes, as standards will always differ from one culture and time to another. What is acceptable to some folks is a taboo to others, hence my culture shocks in USA and other places. We can regard the practices of other countries as bizarre, or downright evil, and, naturally, they view us the same way! I dare say that you probably do not sleep in the same bed as your daughter, but that would be quite accceptable in some countries. I believe that in Italy, it’s quite OK for a mother and son to share a bed until the son is married. It doesn’t necessarily imply sexual activity, just a warmth of relationships with which we more uptight Anglo-Celts would feel uncomfortable.
I don’t regard a drought as evil- it just happens to be part of nature’s cycle, completely impersonal. Katrina and the tsunami could be seen as “evidence” that human life is not terribly precious in the eyes of any deities, including Jahweh. Or they could be viewed as part of the earth’s eco-system, more important than mere human communities. Take your pick.
Fact is, no amount of praying is going to change the type of geography I live in, or its weather patterns. Jesus may have told people that their faith could move mountains, but in the last 2000 years, it hasn’t happened! Not if you take it literally. Let’s be realistic. The cycles just go on and on, century after century, heedless of human or animal suffering. Not evil. Not good or bad- juts part of Nature. It is up to us humans to figure out science-based solutions.
Francoise!!! Hey I don’t want you to think I am avoiding you or making excuses. My son was bit on the leg by a copperhead (venomous snake) yesterday out behind my house. He’s going to be ok but sitting around a hospital didn’t allow me much time.
I will get around to answer you.
In Christ
Andrew \o/
Titus 2:13
Dozer- yeeeeekkkkk! I sympathise- this country has a mega- plethora of nasties lurking in unepxpected places!. In any case, I knew you’d be busy with screening, etc. Don’t fret about me- just concentrate on your boy, OK?
Will do… but I do worry about you… You are important to my Lord Jesus and that makes you important to me. Keep looking for the purple glass. I know what I saw.
In Christ
Andrew \o/
Titus 2:13
OK, you saw it, but I don’t. I could, perhaps, webcam my entire house to demonstrate the lack of purple glass ?
Is webcam the correct term? I get confused with the Newspeak!
Don’t fret about me at all- just concentrate on your boy, who is far more to you than I could ever be. Snakes…eeeeeewwwwww. Shudder!
Don’t you see that rain falls on the just and the unjust? The sun shines on the same? Perhaps a view that if there is a god that god must be performance-based in its thinking is part of the problem for you. I believe God is relationally based. He is a willing Father to those who would be His children. He is a King who imparts Sonship on any who will partake.
There is more than enough in this world for all to enjoy. And pain and stress can make us stronger and more wise. Ease never can.
With all the distractions of life, this is what I came up with.
In my meager attempt here I want to make sure you understand I am not a Rhodes scholar and some great theologian. I am sure many could argue with me but I believe the simple answer that blood is sacred holy and carries life makes it why God chose it.
In Christ
Andrew \o/
Titus 2:13
==========================
From the earliest times, God decreed blood equated life:
“For the life of every creature is the blood of it” (Leviticus 17:14)
“Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in His own image.” (Genesis 9:6)
The Penalty of Sin Is Death
When humans became sinners, they became subject to the penalty of sin, which is death:
“Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever, therefore The Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden” (Genesis 3:22-23)
“you are dust, and to dust you shall return” (Genesis 3:19)
“For the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23)
Jesus Christ Paid The Death Penalty For Us, By His Shed Blood
“with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake” (1 Peter 1:19-20)
“for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins” (Matthew 26:2
“But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water” (John 19:34)
Old Testament Sacrifices Were Symbolic Of The Messiah
“But when Christ appeared as a High Priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent, not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, He entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but His own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, Who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.”
“Therefore He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.”
“For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. Hence even the first covenant was not ratified without blood. For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.” And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.”
“Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the Presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer Himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the Holy Place yearly with blood not his own [see The Day Of Atonement for then He would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, He has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.” (Hebrews 9:11-2
At Christ’s Return, He be wearing a “robe dipped in blood”? Revelation 19:11-15
Well, Bryan, it depends on what you mean by just and unjust persons, doesn’t it? A very subjective term. If you’re one of the more extreme Christian groups, you believe that all mankind is desperately evil, no exceptions.
Performance-based god? Why not? God challenged the Israelites to test his word and see how good it was, a propos of his promise to fill their barns to overflowing in return for their trust and devotion. Humanity has always stoked up its gods’ egos and attracted their attention by gifts, self-sacrifice, flattery, etc. to convince their deities that they’re really nice entities, and their favours were being sought. If your god didn’t answer, you moved on to one who would, or rather, one whose followers claimed that theirs would listen and answer. Catholicism maintains this, by crediting zillions of saints with powers normally ascribed to gods. “St Philomena didn’t answer? I’ve always found St X to be wonderful.” Yes, I actually overheard that in a Catholic church some years ago- it sounded like they were comparing brand names in a supermarket.
I’d guess that you’re not into Mariolatry, right? Most non-Catholic or non-Orthodox are not. Anyway, if ever you go to Poland, you’ll see the ubiquitous BVM. She’s in subways, on telegraph posts, in homes, in fields, shops, cafes, etc. Why? because the Poles believe this female deity to be powerful and maternal. I went to her church in Cestochowa ( apologies to any Polish readers- the spelling of your place names is not my strong point) and was staggered to see the magnitude of the congregation, and the theatrical way her image descended, as though from the Heavens, when trumpets sounded. On the walls you can see crutches, hearing aids, etc, placed their by the faithful who claim that she cured them of their ailments. It’s all pure theatre, and designed to place the subjects into a receptive frame of mind. Who cured them? Your God? Mary? Or just their own belief?
My point? Any deity seems to be capable of answering prayer or being deaf to it. I’d like to know how many worshippers at Cestochowa were NOT cured.
Rain will come eventually to this parched land. It’s our worst drought, so far. But all cycles come to an end, and will do so regardless of any prayers. It is just the nature of this interesting little planet. We either wait, or we provide our own water by desalination and recycling.
Dozer, I posted a thank you on some other thread- can’t find it now, but thanks again, I appreciate the time you took.
As I said before, you have to examine what ancient priests/magicians were trying to achieve with blood sacrifices, i.e, the mastery of the mysteries of life, the harnessing of psychic energy, the imitation of menstruation, etc etc.
Interesting that you state that Jesus died “for many”, which indicates not everyone. Like me, perhaps ?
Wearing a robe dipped in blood? Yech!
If Jesus was dead when the lance pierced him, how did the blow and water flow?
Ooops, I meant blood and water ( old age, can’t see as well as I once did!)
francoise,
you need to know some biology .Only when a person is dead , blood and water will come.Else ,only blood will flow.
Back to the original question…I have to disagree. Falling back on the “it’s-because-we’re-sinners” response just doesn’t cut it as apologetics. Sure, it makes sense to Christians, but to those who are on the fence about the Gospel, it comes across as rather less than graceful. There’s a better answer, which I’ve posted at:
weblog.xanga.com/Beloved_Spear/619619240/why-doesnt-god-heal-amputees.html
Marfty, cardiac action is needed to force blood to flow.
Fraincoise ,cardiac action will be there as long as the person is alive.
Yes, back to the question of original sin.
I want you to imagine that you have committed a crime and that your child is also held responsible for your crime. I want you to imagine how this could ever be called justice.
God moves in mysterious ways?
Or does it look more like a standard, off-the-shelf form of cowing the masses? “You’re a no-good, filthy maggot! Now go do what I tell you!”
Marty- my point is that jesus was supposed to be dead when they lanced him.
Geekwad - it’s now almost 6 months, and God still hasn’t appeared. I thought you’d like to know.
Damian, yes, I heartily concur.
I have a question for the believers: Supposing that you owed me money and couldn’t repay the debt. My insane egocentricity demands that you be put to death. No, I cannot just forgive you and be done with it- you jolly well have to DIE!
But then, for some inexplicable reason, I change my mind and decide that I won’t murder you- instead, I will take my son, a blameless, innocent being who has never harmed a soul, and have him put to death with barbarous cruelty. I stand by and watch him being flayed alive, spat upon, bruised and battered before being hung naked to die in agony. And then- you and I can be friends again !
Is it just? Is it even sane? Does it make any sense whatsoever ? Not to me, it doesn’t.
Francoise,
Ignoring the question-begging and straw-man elements of your question, I’ll point out one of many responses from a Christian worldview: Jesus is God and willingly sacrificed himself for us:
John 10:17-18 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.
Actually I thought they were good questions…and some of the things Jesus said and di, intentionally lead to these questions… (which I think is why He did some of them)…
He will, all of them eventually, (so he says), amputees, cripples, depressed and lonely,etc…… I think the real premise to this question is “why won’t he heal amputees right now.. Who really knows, except for God, but he said they work to gether for His purposes…
Frankly this one shouldn’t be blamed on God… but men… it isn’t like we don’t have enough food… I think this one should be asked rather to men… and then ask the question…”Why do we have so many rich people in the world why so many are starving”…
Ultimately men are selfish… and would rather have pleasure than feed someone else… that isn’t God’s fault… in fact He said we all are sinful…and selfish… the fact that we get food at all is grace from God, after all it all belongs to him… it is man who is selfish and unfaithful…
God never demanded anyones death.. in fact He said that He would that everyone would not perish but have etrnal life…
Also is there anyone who is innocent and hasn’t sinned against God… no there isn’t… a better question is this… “Why does God allow the guilty to go unpunished for so long”…
The fact that anyone kills anyone else, and causes suffering, only to get away with it, is evidence of God’s mercy…but He has also said that there will come a day when His mercy runs out and all are brought into judgment..
What… you would have to live in a cave for hundreds of years to really believ that, or just plain don’t want to admit that over 90 % of the achievements in science came froma direct result of the bible, and those who believe it…
This is a historical misunderstanding… God was not a “proponent of slavery” men were, the word of God set fair standards of Masters (like the boss), to treat slaves (like the emplowee)fairly… God also required that all slaves (slavery at that time were those who willingly sold themselves as slaves to pay off their debts), be freed every 7 years… regardless of the amount owed…
Again another evidence of God’s mercy and wisdom for sinful, self absorved men, who treated others poorly…
There truly is no such thing as a “good person”… there have been men who exampled a sense of moral acceptability in the eyes of others, but everyone has fallen short, and is guilty…
If you were in a courtroom guilty of murder, and said… “I don’t deserve to go to jail for murder, I have given money to charity”… that is the equivolent of man’s goodness…a better question to ask is “why do
good things happen to bad people?”
We get air to breath, bodies to live in, and food, and those are good things that all come from God…
If I had a dog that kept biting my hand every time I fed it… I would stop feeding it… but God is merciful…
We may be excellent people morally… but we are all guilty and no one is good…
There is all kinds of evidence… I am not sure this question is anything but an emotional response to a jaded perspective…
Time changed around Jesus…(AD BC), the fact that the nation Israel even exists, or that Christianity is still here is miraculous, and foretold for nearly 6000 years… not to mention the other stuff…This person should take a trip to Israel.. there still talking about it today after 2000 years… how Christ performed miracles… Evidence that lasts that long is truly miraculous…
Oh He has, to everyone… but sometimes our eyes are shut or blinded and we can’t see…
Jesus was speaking in an analogy… The same people that followed him for a few weeks only for bread.. came to Him while he was teaching people about God in the temple, and demanded more bread… to them He said “my flesh is true food, and my blood is poured out for the forgiveness of sins”..
They left at “eat my flesh and drink my blood”, because they didn’t get what he was saying…and didn’t bother learning “how to fish”.. they just wanted to get fish for themselves…
Jesus was teaching them how to come into a relationship with the living God, and be forgiven of their sins, but they didn’t stick around long enough to find out…they were filled with pride from not getting their bellies filled, rather than seeking to learn how to fill others… this statement by Jesus people still run away from today, because it doesn’t fill their bellies…
This is the saddest, and most legitimate question…
and all I can say is I don’t know, I am sorrowed along with you…
Neil,
Could you spell out which elements were question-begging and straw-men? I’m not trying to be dense, I’m just not sure I follow.
Also, you mentioned that Jesus = God but the verse you cited from John seems to portray Jesus as separate from the Father, who presumably is the one God Specifically:
my Father loves me (Jesus loves Jesus?)
I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. (authority from whom?)
I received from my Father (Jesus received from Jesus?)
The Synoptics tell a different story of Jesus’ willingness to lay down His life vs. His obedience to lay it down:
Mat 26:38-44 (Jesus asks 3 time to make the cup pass - but in the end He is obedient to the Father’s will) Luke 22:42-44 (Jesus asks twice for the cup to pass but in the end is obedient to the Father’s will), and Mar 14:35-36 (Jesus asks twice for the cup to pass, then says: “not what I will, but what thou wilt”
- an explicit statement that Jesus’ will is contrary to the Father’s will, yet He obeys the Father will.
Avery,
So, why do you believe those things? And more importantly (from an evangelist’s standpoint), why should I believe those things? …that God will heal amputees, that it’s OK for God to watch people starve to death, that God never demanded anyone’s death (see Deu 32:41-42, Exo 32:27-28, Num 16:30-35, Num 16:46-49, and many more), that God wouldn’t prohibit slavery if he were against it (men were also a proponent of adultery but God prohibited it), that bad things should happen equally to Hitler and Mother Teresa since they are both “bad”, that Jesus has appeared to me?
The only miracle that you mentioned was the existence of Isreal and Christianity. Why do you believe that is a miracle? And more importantly (again from an evangelist’s viewpoint), why should I?
Boy.. great questions askanatheist…
You don’t have to believe those things.. first off, because you have a “free will”.. meaning God gave you your mind, but you have free exercise…
You should however believe those things, because they are true… isn;t that the nature of believing?
As far as why I believe God will heal amputees… because of the resurrection…
Everyone, good, bad or ugly will be raised from the dead… and for those who have trusted in Jesus, and the forgiveness found in Him, they will inherit eternal life, healing, and everlasting joy…that’s the promise anyway…
The bible teaches that everyone will be raised from the dead…and judged…
(If you don’t believe this, you’ll find out later whether or not you believed the truth)
As far as God demanding the death of some… I think the difference between saying that and the truth, is the difference between demanding that a child be punished for nothing, and that a child be justlky punished for discipline’s sake…
Remember the context of the initial question was concerning God demanding the death of the “innocent”.. and as I stated… no on is innocent… so how could that even be possible…
However God gave the law to dter those would be guilty parties from doing the things that they would do…
What God demanded was obedienc, and the crime for failing was death…. that is not the same thing as demanding death of innocents…but rather deters the death of innocents, and justly punishes the guilty…
I don’t know why God prohibited slavery… He hasn’t ever revealed that, that I know of, but surely it was better for those who were slaves, than it is today for some men who are “free”, because under God’s system, slaves were treated very well…
As far as that bad should happen both to Miother Theresa and Hitler… again, this is about guilt, and all are guilty, albeit not equally guilty…
But that is the failure of most of humanity…
For some reason (probably sin and selfishness), man thinks that God created man to be man’s servant, when the adverse is true…
Man (including Mother Theresa and Hitler) are