[From WXYZ]
The Macomb County Sheriff’s Department says it’s dismantled a wildly illegal family business — a huge marijuana operation based in a former church building.
Read about it here.
[From me]
And people have been arguing over alcohol? Was this part of a building program?
Well .. if you read enough blogs enough times, you’l conclude that the church as we know it is going to ….
uuuh …
naaaah. I can’t do it. I just can’t do it…
Ha ha. Again I have to say, Bob!
Did they tithe on it? Hmmm
if you’re gonna drink alcohol, why not smoke pot? what’s the difference?
david
David (volfan007)
I’m not sure who you are referring to. I don’t drink. I hate the stuff! My grandfather died from drinking and it ruined my wife’s family. I could go on and on.
But Jesus did turn water into wine? He didn’t use pot so I’m not sure what you are trying to start here.
kevin,
you said, “And people have been arguing over alcohol?” as if it were a bad thing for us to be argueing against alcohol use amongst christians when pot growers are out there. i guess i’m thinking about all the times that people have argued that christians drinking alcohol is ok. and, all of us who voiced that it was foolish to drink the fermented stuff, and a sin to be high on alcohol were called legalist and fundies and such. but, i used to drink alcohol and smoke weed on a regular basis before i was saved. so, i know a little about both. and, you might as well smoke a joint as to drink beer.
i guess, kevin, that what i’m trying to point out is this….if someone thinks that it’s ok for a christian to drink alcohol, then wouldnt they have to think that it’s ok for a christian to smoke weed as well? if it werent against the law?
what do you think?
david
David,
I like you hate alcohol. But how can we who say we believe the Bible is without error call something a sin when the Bible doesn’t say it? The Bible makes it clear that drugs are wrong. The Bible does say drunkenness is a sin but Paul tells Timothy to drink a little wine.
Personally I think it is unwise for a believer to drink today. There are too many bad things that can happen like killing someone driving and abuse. But how can I add laws to the Bible? I wish I could make it more black and white but this is one area that I can’t.
kevin,
where in the bible does it say that drugs are wrong?
david
Gal 5:20 Sorcery/witchcraft, is from the Greek word, “Pharmakia” the same word we get pharmacy from. it means the general illicit use of drugs (same application as today) and the use of drugs to cast spells etc.
The Bible mentions four powerful drugs, three that are stronger than LSD. They are wormwood, hemlock, gall and myrrh.
http://www.cmn.co.za/html/drugs_and_the_bible.htm
kevin,
i just watched your interview with the westboro baptist woman. wow! good interview. you did a good job.
david
I’m finding this discussion is so interesting, I’m going to keep out of it so I don’t wreck it. If anyone would care to expand on their position, I’d read it eagerly.
kevin,
while i agree with you on the application of the greek word “pharmakia,” you are sounding a lot like what the “alcohol is ok” crowd says is wrong with all of us teetotallers view on alchohol use. i believe that they would think that you and i are making more out of that word than what the bible intends.
you see, i believe that drug use is wrong from several different viewpoints. i think it’s foolish due to the harm it does. i believe that it is a form of witchcraft and/or sorcery due to the greek word. and, i believe that eph. 5:22 can be applied to drugs as well….we shouldnt be high on anything but the Holy Spirit. but, does that word and the versee you quote say that smoking weed is sinful?
i believe drinking anything fermented and undiluted is foolish according to prov. 20 and 23. and, of course, getting drunk is sin due to eph. 5. i dont believe for a second that Jesus made fermented, undiluted alcohol for being to drink at a wedding. on this, maybe we must disagree.
but, if you believe that it’s ok to drink jack daniels and bud lite and the capt., then really, i dont see how you can take such a hard stand on smoking weed.
david
volfan007,
(By the way is that a Klingon derivative?)
Like many others you have taken a view based on human traditions (the temperance movement) and not on any kind of reasonable exegesis of Scripture. If you take the “I don’t believe …” route about Jesus making wine you have problems. You have determined what it is possible for the text to mean rather than taking the text as it is. “Teaching for doctrine the traditions of men” is the way Jesus described it. He did not say they were not good traditions (at least in the beginning); He did not say they were not understandable traditions; He did not say they were not protective traditions. He simply declared it is not alright to take a tradition and call it Biblical doctrine. I confess, I can’t wrap my head around the reasoning which denies the nature of the wine which is so clearly presented in Scripture as just that. When Jesus gave the parable of the new wine in old wineskins, just what do you think was going to burst the skin if not the gases given off by the fermentation process? His statement regarding comparative quality seems to suggest He knew something about it. Consider as well (Deu 14:26) “And you may spend the money for whatever your heart desires, for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.” Is it possible that something taken with joy in the presence of God in the OT has taken on a completely different character in the New?
This issue is not about anyone advocating drinking. It is about keeping the wall of separation between Scripture and traditions.
Regarding the idea of the pot. Pot growing and pot smoking are illegal. You are comparing apples and oranges here.
Scotty
It’s really a shame that the writers of the Bible did not know about tobacco, since from my perspective it is taking a greater toll on us than any other drug. I don’t think I recall hearing much at all on the subject of addiction from the Bible.
Are folks here familiar with the idea that Jesus would have used cannabis in religious ceremonies? http://www.google.com/search?q=anointed+messiah+cannabis Seems credible to me, but I can’t say more than that.
Scotty,
There are nations where it is illegal to practice Christianity. This argument has its limits in human stupidity, which has none.
scotty,
the word most used for wine in the kjv and some other verses literally means “the fruit of the vine.” the fruit of the vine was grape juice. history tells us that the jews would dilute the fruit of the vine with three parts water, or even up to ten parts water, to one part the fruit of the vine. prov. 20 and 23 teach that it’s foolish to drink strong drink….to drink that which you know to be fermented, and has the punch to make a person drunk. that’s what it says. and, to be drunk is sin….that’s very clear in the bible.
in regards to smoking weed….if it was made legal tomorrow….you would say it’s ok to smoke it?
david
voldan007 — Would you then say someone could turn ten litres of water into eleven liters of “wine” by adding the balance in grape juice?
geekwad,
no. Jesus turned the water…pure water…into thier fruit of the vine drink….and it was very good fruit of the vine btw.
scotty,
my name…volfan007….has something to do with the fact that i’m a tn volunteer fan…you know, ut….university of tn. and, jethro bodine of the beverly hillbillies used to say that he was double naught spy. james bond and all. i’m also a big james bond fan.
beam me up…..errr, you know what i’m about to say….scotty.
david
volfan007
I know about the Greek word translated “wine.” I also know that it was customary to dilute it with water. That does not make it less than wine. Your “belief that Jesus did not make fermented undiluted alcohol” must be read into the text as a determined fact. You cannot get that out of it! Your continued references to drunkenness do not count as no one disagrees with that. That is not the issue. The issue, as I tried to point out, is giving the weight of divine authority to a tradition. The idea of Christians as “teetotalers” is even a relatively new tradition and it is not even a tradition except in the United States.
You dodge the question about Jesus turning water into wine by changing the word to “fruit of the vine.” Can you bring yourself to say He made it into grape juice? I alluded to His parable of the wineskins – same word used at the wedding feast, by the way – noting it was the pressure of fermentation which burst the skin. Do you get that? Or do you have some other explanation for it?
And the Scripture relative to “strong drink” and its acceptance “before the Lord” — what about that? I assume your entire belief that Jesus did not make wine is based on your belief that it would have caused Him to somehow be impure in being associated with it. If it is something God has declared to be acceptable (without drunkenness) and something which God has ordained for man’s good (He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, And vegetation for the labor of man, So that he may bring forth food from the earth, {15} And wine which makes man’s heart glad, So that he may make his face glisten with oil, And food which sustains man’s heart. Psa 104:14-15) then how can Jesus making the wine (fermented grape juice – the alcoholic content of which it is impossible for us to judge) be a bad thing?
Regarding the pot idea – it is illegal. For geekwad to compare smoking illegal pot to being a Christian boggles the mind. The idea is being subject to laws unless they are contradictory to the Word of God. Sheesh!
And for your question – if it were legal would I believe it was acceptable. Yes I believe it would – but not for a high (in the same way drunkenness is not acceptable). For example, poppy plants are used for heroin production. To shoot it up is a crime, but to use it for morphine production is a boon to man. If pot is effective medicinally why would it not be acceptable? How many are there who are using chemicals for the same purposes? Would natural substances not be better?
Don’t go off here and say I am advocating smoking pot. I am not. I am saying that we have it on good authority that God has given man every plant which bears seed for good purposes. Sure it is possible for it to be perverted – but that does not make the thing itself evil – only made evil by evil hearts.
Now, I only put that there to try to answer your question. For you to induce that into the discussion is not really germane. It is not a question of what would I allow or what would I think or what would I judge — it is a question of what are we told in Scripture. My view of pot smoking has absolutely nothing to do with the meaning of texts of Scripture containing “oinos.”
You believe “wine” in the NT is not really “wine” but “fruit of the vine.” You believe Jesus would not make wine. My point here is that your belief is determining the meaning of the words and not the other way round. Your belief is also defining how you perceive Jesus — and that is not a small matter. He was called a “glutton and drunkard” (Mt 11:19) by the Pharisees in reference to His eating and drinking. How would that have been possible if could not have been possible? When the apostles were said to be drunk at Pentecost why did Peter say “its too early in the day” rather than just announce they did not drink “fermented undiluted fruit of the vine”? Why are deacons prohibited from “much wine”? Because it is wine!
It seems not to matter that there are many references with that word “oinos” which make it clear to an unbiased reader that it is actually wine which consumed to excess would cause drunkenness. That is the issue. To advocate a tradition AS IF IT WERE SCRIPTURE or to reshape the meaning of Scripture (even that which is inconvenient and may be misunderstood or misapplied) is not a good thing. After all, reshaping the meaning of God’s words is how we got into this sinful condition in the first place.
Scotty
PS — I like the Klingon idea for volfan007 better. I have trouble seeing any Christian deliberately identifying themselves with such a disreputable character as James Bond.
Scotty, you note that the Bible explicitly permits us the free use of all the seed-bearing plants on Earth. Doesn’t that mean a law that seeks to prevent the same is in conflict with scriptures, and must be ignored? Not perfectly ideal since the good stuff comes from unfertilized female plants and so has no seed, though you can still settle your nausea and get a good night’s rest with less good stuff. (That was a joke. Do not accuse me of advocating ditch weed. Get the good stuff.)
What is so strange? Both are illegal if you get off the plane at the wrong airport, and legal at the right one. I left it up to you to come up with more examples of things which should not be illegal, but are. I feel inclined to offer a “Sheesh!” of my own.
I picked the example I did because I thought it would be appropreate for the forum, being unaware at the time that Christians are instructed to disregard laws in conflict with their book. (Yet another reason to fear the politician who invokes His name, I suppose.) It’s sort of off-topic, but I’m not sure how to take that. If I say it’s acceptable for Christians to hold their religious law higher than their civil law, I have to say it’s acceptable for any religious person. And as stupid as human laws can be, they got nothing on the religions humans can dream up.
At any rate, my point is that not everything that is legal is right, and not everything that is illegal is wrong. We agree there. We disagree on how the bad laws can be identified, but until you tell me why pot isn’t a seed-bearing plant gifted to us by God, I’ll think we agree on this case particular after all.
I’m sorry for any momentary discomfort my boggling may have caused your mind, but it’s at least it is good exercise.
scotty,
i dont agree with your view of “fruit of the vine.” i think that you’re wrong about the things you point out. of course, you think that i’m wrong. oh well. i think the verses in proverbs 20 and 23 are very good arguements for drinking anything fermented and undiluted as being foolish. not sinful. but, foolish. drunkeness is sinful. i believe that there’s a distinction.
for example, it would not be foolish for you and me to wander onto a nude beach and see beautiful women running around. but, it would be foolish for us to stay there! because, it would be very tempting for us to stay there. it would probably lead to sin….lust.
same thing with alcohol. proverbs teaches that drinking strong drink is foolish….could lead to drunkeness, which is sin.
also, your point about Jesus being accused by the pharisees about being a drunk and a glutton….i dont believe that He was either…do you? i mean, if you’re gonna use the drunk part of that to mean that he was drinking fermented, undiluted fruit of the vine, then are you also saying that Jesus overate? that He was committing gluttony? or, was this a false accusation from the pharisees? i believe that this was a false accusation. i dont believe that Jesus was foolish, nor was He a sinner. i know that you dont believe that either.
david
volfan007,
No, I don’t believe Jesus was foolish or sinful. I do believe he ate regular food rather than being an ascetic and was accused of gluttony, as opposed to John the Baptist. I do believe he drank wine and was accused of drunkenness as opposed to John the Baptist who was under a Nazarite vow. That was my point. If there was no drinking – no possibility of being accused of being drunk.
You don’t believe my view of “oinos.” I have cited numerous texts of Scripture to support my view. You have cited “I don’t believe it.” I have cited texts to show that even the drinking of wine is not viewed as sinful in Scripture and I will have to leave it with that because further discussion only buts up against “I don’t think so.”
Your citing of Proverbs fails to note that it is being deceived by wine in Prov 20 which is foolish and Prov 23 obviously deals with intoxication. No one I know of has ever challenged that. Of course, that has not ever been the point.
Bye,
Scotty
Recognizing that it was merely an example, David, my experience is that staying long enough on a nude beach or the like has exactly an effect exactly opposite to what you suspect. If I were a man with a different set of beliefs, I might suspect that’s why God furnishes us with such a surfeit of temptation; so that we have the chance to conquer it. I might even wonder if “lead us not” is such a great thing to pray for.
Volfan,
This subject has been debated into the ground on numerous other blogs, where your point of view was shown not bibically accurate. You are one of the SBC crusaders. Kevin has stated that he took his dog out of that fight a long time ago.
Please don’t bring your SBC crusades here, especially with this dead horse you’re beating on.
rob,
i’m one of the sbc crusaders? really? and, i dont think that your name is kevin bussey, is it? i mean, you’re telling me to not bring my sbc crusades here? who are you to say that?
i believe with all of my heart that my view on the alcohol issue is very biblical and accurate, and there are many, many other preachers out there who would agree with me. i have shown you scriptures as well, and yet, you all just say, that aint the way that word was meant to be understood. or, that’s not what i think that verse means. but, i beg to differ…if you dont mind.
kevin, if you dont want me to come to your blog with my “crusades,” then i wont be back. i’ll respect your opinion and your desires.
david
David,
You are free to say whatever you want. I won’t comment on the denomination of my roots.
Everyone is encouraged to share what is on your heart as long as we treat people with respect.