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How I know the God of the Universe personally

I’ve been fortunate to have many people of different faiths and yes some atheists who frequent this site. Yesterday my friend Ask an Atheist commented after this comment from me.

I know the God of the Bible personally.

AAA said this:

I’d like to hear more about that. That might be a good idea for a new topic: asking Christians (and other theists who might be here) to describe their personal relationship with God.

I told him that he didn’t have to twist my arm so here it is:

I became a follower of Jesus when I was 5 years old. My parents shared with me after church one day how I could know God personally, so I asked Jesus to become the leader of my life. I know for certain that my decision to follow Jesus was real because I was never a rebellious child. I 1st saw God move in a mighty way through me while I was in Jr. High School. I prayed that God would lead my best friend to Christ and using a comic book called “The Late Great Planet Earth” my friend asked Jesus to live in his life.

However I did experience some spiritual snobbery. I began to look down on people who didn’t live a life that I thought honored Christ. I was a Pharisee. You can read about that whole experience here.

God revealed himself to me personally on many occasions. I should have been killed on several times. I was kidnapped by a Brokeback Cowboy. I’ve been in my share of car accidents and have been in the middle of a shootout between one of America’s 10 most wanted and the FBI. For some reason God protected me.

In college God began to speak to me through His word. I have never heard an audible voice from God but I know for certain that He spoke to me. One occasion was the summer before my Senior year at Samford University. I was on a summer beach project with Campus Outreach. We spent the summer training for ministry and working full time jobs. I don’t know how to explain it but God was rocking my world. One night I was praying and I was giving things to God like my girlfriend, my education, my health, my family and my car. My car was a 1966 Ford Mustang, white with red interior. My dad and I were restoring this beauty and I had just put brand new Firestone 721 raised white letter tires on my car and charged it to my first credit card. I prayed this prayer at 11:00 PM. I went to bed by 11:30 PM and my discipleship leader woke me up at 12:30 AM and asked if I let someone borrow my car. I said no. He said someone just drove off in it. To make matters worse, my car was parked next to a Lancia convertible with the top down and the keys in the ignition. Some may say that was coincidence but I say it was God seeing if I was really serious. To add insult to injury I had no theft insurance and have never recovered that car.

I was delivering newspapers for the Birmingham News in Birmingham, AL. I was a graduate student at the Univeristy of Alabama @ Birmingham. I was paying my way thru college delivering 4 paper routes. I had just bought an engagement ring for Cassandra (my lovely wife of 18 years). Cassandra and I were studying at my apartment with Bob Webb (my roomate) when I received a call from a customer whose dog ate their paper. Why that was my fault, I’ll never know. I went to deliver them another one, but by this time it was dark. I was driving down one of the mountains in Birmingham (Homewood), listening to my Allies Cassette when an object crashed on my windshield out of nowhere. I slamed on the brakes and the object flew through the air about 15 feet in front of me. I leaped out of the car only to see a man lying on the pavement. Then a young lady yelled at me, “you’ve killed him.” A man literally jumped on my car. He had committed suicide. Unfortunately he died a few days later.

This was the hardest thing I have ever faced. I cried in my shower for weeks to come–maybe even months. I still have a hard time driving at night. Whenever I see a TV show or movie that shows a person being hit by a car it brings back bad memories.

But right then in the midst of tragedy God was at work. I had been attending Shades Mountain Baptist Church for years, but Cassandra was a member of Dawson Memorial Baptist in Homewood, AL. You know how it is when you are dating, you end up at your girlfriends church and I was no different. I had been going to Dawson eventhough I was a member of Shades. The first people to arrive at the scene of my accident was an ministry team from Dawson. One of them was an Associate Pastor there. They did so much that week it was unbelievable. They ministered to me in a great time of need.
The people at Dawson took care of me all week so I decided to join the church that Sunday. I was already going there, I may as well get involved with what God was doing. Little did I know the team from Dawson was ministering to the girlfriend of the man who committed suicide on my car all week long. Sunday morning during the invitation I walked down one isle of the church to join and the girlfriend of the man was walking down another to accept Christ into her life. The whole day was surreal. I still remember it like it was yesterday. The staff was crying and many others were too. God used an older couple that morning to minister to me because they had run over someone 2 months before.

It was a tragic event and I wish it had never happened. But God used it to lead a young lady to Christ. He used it to shape and mold me. He continues to use pain to shape me. I love Philip Yancey and his book “Where is God when it Hurts.” He says that pain is actually a good thing. Without it we would hurt ourselves. It warns us when we need to make adjustments. God has used my pain to help others. I have had the chance to minister to at least a half dozen people who have experienced similar accidents as I did. Only someone who has gone through something like this can understand. He has used it to make me more like Him. I am grateful that God loves me that much.

Then after I got married and was working in the business world I was working for an Insulated Wire company traveling across the southeastern US. God was dealing with me about going into vocational ministry. I was out running on the beach in Florida and praying. I gave things to God again. You would think I would have learned my lesson. But I gave God my car (it was a company car), my house, my wife, my health and my job. This was on a Thursday and I flew back home to Alabama and went into work Monday morning. I was told by my boss that our whole sales force was being let go! I started laughing because I knew God had spoken.

I’ve asked God to meet specific financial needs and we had the exact amounts sent to us in the mail by people who had no idea what we needed. God speaks to me every day through His Word and when I pray every day.

20 Responses

  1. Kevin,
    I have always been impressed by your depth of faith and the life you have lived, wonderful.

    God has been part of my life, all my life, even when I felt most seperated from Him, I knew He was there. When, in college I had a conversion experience I thought it was all “done and taken care of.” Little did I know that the journey was just beginning.

    I don’t know exactly how Jesus’ redeemed me, but I do know that He did. The theology can be argued, but for me, it is far more about Jesus, as God Incarnate entering my life, among all other human lives. He is there in all the highs, lows, and even the most mundane of affairs. He has taken my life and continues to redeem it and filling it with His Presence.

    In my darkest hours, as my wife lay dying, I KNEW Jesus was with her and me, that He had walked this road before us, and had therefore taken the sting of death away.

    I know Him, not just in words, but at a deeper, u could almost call it sub-atomic it is so fundamental to me.

  2. MIT,

    I can’t imagine the kind of pain you had to deal with losing your best friend.

  3. Wow,

    You know Kevin, Right now I am going through one of the most difficult times of my life, and yet, joy, peace and strength are mine! And I’m not some airhead, blab and grab kinda guy, if I’m hurting I’ll have the honesty to tell you. Yes I do have moments and am struggling with being “me focused” especially when I feel the pain. But I fight to be focused on others and it has brought me joy. God has used me within the past week to be a blessing to others. Helped a guy who got kicked out of his home, helped a family with a bed for their kids, even gave a guy Mud Tires I had stored in my garage for a 4×4 truck I do not own anymore, who really needed them. I even prayed with and for my pastor.

    Ministered to a single mother who really loves Jesus, but is going through a very difficult time. She’s been divorced for years, is now unemployed, feels no one in the church loves her and she’s been bar hopping to meet the need for companionship. I gave her a copy of the book, “True Faced” and told her to talk, chat online or e-mail if she wanted to discuss it, and been praying for her every night.

    Later tonight I’ll write about my incredible gift from God last Christmas! You’ll think no way, but let me tell you, it has been incredible.

    PEACE!

    In Christ
    Andrew \o/
    Titus 2:13

  4. Kevin,

    Thanks for the response and for posting the new thread! I was fascinated by the both the experiences and also the interpretations of those experiences, so thanks to those who shared. Kevin’s experience struck me as based mostly on coincidences, MIT’s based on introspection, and Dozer’s on relationship to others. I say “mostly” because while there were elements of all 3 types of experience in all 3 testimonies, there also was a definite focus. Do you 3 see the that too?

    In my own experience, I’m also influenced by good and bad coincidences. Sometimes the universe seems to rail against me when a string of bad things happen one right after another, and sometimes it seems to adore me when a string of good things happen. I know intellectually that it is just coincidence, but the feeling is there; that there is an agent of some sort at work. On the other hand, senseless, horrible things happen to faithful Christians and infidels alike. The same holds for wonderful things. It just doesn’t seem like evidence of a “personal relationship” though. When I think of a personal relationship, one thing I think of is reciprication – one agent (me) to another (another person, a pet, God, etc). I didn’t get the sense of any real reciprication.

    I also get the “oneness-with-the-universe” and the “nothingness” experience. Meditation can cause it and certain thoughts can also cause it to varying degrees. The experience is incredible! I don’t want to down-play it. One could interpret the sensation as being one with God or “touching” God. But one could just as easily interpret the exact same experience as one with all life, one with the cosmos, or simply the void, as many cultures do interpret it. I think this comes the closest to having a personal relationship with God but I think there has to be a reason to prefer this interpretation of the experience over the others for me to see it as a real personal relationship.

    I can’t say that I’ve had it as tough as Dozer has since I don’t know what he’s going through but I can say that I have been through some pretty tough times as I’m sure most of us have. I don’t always turn it outward to help others but sometimes I do (though maybe not to the same degree that Dozer describes). But when I do, it’s miraculous medicine. You get a completely different perspective on your own problems. Sure, they’re still there but their importance sort of melts away when you connect with someone else that needs your help. And when you are on the receiving end of it, you feel completely undeserving and grateful and loved. It’s wonderful, it’s a deep personal experience with another person, which some interpret as a conduit through which you actually experience God Himself. But in the final analysis, I don’t find a reason to project an experience with God onto a deep experience with another human being.

    I don’t think you have to have a personal relationship with God to believe that there is a God (though it would certainly do the trick!). But I think people are often a bit generous when they describe their experiences as an actual “personal relationship.”

  5. I suppose to the casual outside observer you can call it merely coincidental when…

    …an inoperable cancerous tumor weighing 20+ pounds is healed.

    …the wind stops blowing your papers and work away, just because you ask.

    …a thunderstorm changes course away from loved ones until they can reach safety.

    …marriages are restored, lives are changed and God provides for your needs whatever they may be.

    However you cannot explain how JOB knew the earth was a sphere, suspended on nothing in the vast emptiness of space, thousands of years before men possessed the technology to tell.

    And you cannot call my personal experience coincidental. To actually talk to God and find, wow there is a God and He talks back to me! First time that happened to me I was awestruck. Some may think, Oh that’s schitzophenia, or ESP or some other psychological or psychic phenomena. It’s mere Christianity my friend and it is what makes a relationship with Jesus so cool… He made the way for man to be in fellowship with the God of Creation.

    I will encourage you, if you are seeking God, sincerely pray and ask God to talk with you. Be ready to be awestruck.

    However if you have your mind made up that this is all hooey, well there’s not much me or any of the millions of other Christians can do to convince you otherwise. All you have is the testimony that He’s real to us and we love Him because He first loved us.

    In Christ
    Andrew \o/

  6. my relationship with Christ is not very feelings based. raised as a christian i rejected it around 20 or so. To make a very long story short-the evidence for the resurrection is what brought me back to faith in Christ.

    My faith is like this-there is abundant evidence that Jesus raised from the dead thus validating his claims to be God. Since he proved himself to be God i will listen to what he has to say. he says he loves me and i will meet him someday. that gives me both encouragement and strength in this life. so i live my life for him and look forward to meeting him. then i suppose the real relationship will begin.

  7. Dozer,

    I actually do doubt the divine intervention in the coincidences you mention: like what about the other people in the path of the storm, spontaneous remission of cancer is common, etc., and with Job’s round earth as evidence. But that’s really not the point of my post so I don’t want to belabor it. The point of my post (and the point of my request to Kevin for this thread) is to hear someone’s experience with an bona fide personal relationship with God.


    And you cannot call my personal experience coincidental. To actually talk to God and find, wow there is a God and He talks back to me! First time that happened to me I was awestruck. Some may think, Oh that’s schitzophenia, or ESP or some other psychological or psychic phenomena. It’s mere Christianity my friend and it is what makes a relationship with Jesus so cool… He made the way for man to be in fellowship with the God of Creation.

    Actually, if you don’t mind sharing some of the details, that was the type of response to the thread I was hoping for: a description of an actual personal relationship with God.


    I will encourage you, if you are seeking God, sincerely pray and ask God to talk with you. Be ready to be awestruck.

    I did – and I used to believe I had a personal relationship with God until I took a closer look at what had earlier passed for me as “hearing from God”.


    However if you have your mind made up that this is all hooey, well there’s not much me or any of the millions of other Christians can do to convince you otherwise. All you have is the testimony that He’s real to us and we love Him because He first loved us.

    My mind is never made up. A big roadblock for me with the witness is that it is nearly always inflated; it becomes apparent as soon as you start asking for details. It is rare indeed to hear a witness as is, without embellishment.

    davidbmc,


    the evidence for the resurrection is what brought me back to faith in Christ.

    If I believed in God based on evidence, then I would be much more inclined to believe that God really speaks to those who claim that He does. In other words, given that the God of the Bible really exists as the bible describes Him, it isn’t such a long shot to accept that He really speaks to us.

    However, when personal relationship with God IS evidence that the bible is true, then I think it is important to know that personal relationships with God truly occur.

  8. AAA,

    My experiences were not coincidences. They were specific prayers that were answered.

  9. I don’t have time to go into detail right now, AAA, but I, too, have a few stories to tell about knowing the God of the Universe, who is the King of all kings. In fact, I am a son of the King, and that is very exciting stuff.

    Many of the stories can seem like coincidences and simply the subject of interpretation – the “you see what you believe” phenomenon. But, perhaps there is truth in the “you see what you believe” theory of life because what is faith if it isn’t a trust in the unseen? Even the bible defines faith in that way. Hebrews 11:1.

    One quick example of God (or coincidence as some will say): My wife and I are serving as missionaries in the Philippines and are convicted (we believe we were told by God) to give $100 to a school to buy fifty children uniforms so that they can attend school. So, we do so. The very next day I walk into a restaurant to pick up something. I’m not there to visit or to talk to anyone and am “all about” my task at hand. Surprisingly, there is this older Filipino getleman sitting in the corner talking with some of the employees who sees me and addresses me. He begins asking me what I do. I begin telling him of my journey from being a corporate lawyer to being a missionary (all in about five minutes). By the end of the conversation this elderly Filipino pulls out his wallet and hands me a $100 bill, in US currency. As it turned out, he was Filipino born but now a businessman in Los Angeles. God was showing us His faithfulness and our ministry of being a channel of blessings, among other things.

    As I have time I will write more (and have written more at my blogsite).

    Thanks, Kev, for your ministry!

  10. I am glad my response was the response you were looking for. I agree with David that my “religion” is not feelings based, but feelings do come into play in any relationship. My relationship with my wife is not feelings based either, because the law says we’re married. But without feeling, there is not much point.

    About all I can add about my relationship with God, is, it’s personal. Not that I am keeping it a mysterious secret but try describing to someone your relationship with another person.

    You spend time with them, and you get to know them.

    Like Kevin I have a list of specific prayers that have been answered. But more than God simply granting my requests, there is communication on a deeply personal intimate level, like between two lovers when everything is right, but so much more. He’s like a faithful friend, He says things that are right although it’s not always what I would want to hear. I’m not sure how to describe that. God is a friend, but He is so much more than a friend. He is a Father, but so much more than a father. He’s more. The Father, Spirit and Jesus are real. He is (They are) not mythical creations of man’s imagination… it’s just mind blowing.

    It’s the love and kindness of God that draws us. I hope you get to experience that today.

    In Christ
    Andrew \o/
    Titus 2:13

  11. One mo thing… Read this book by the late A.W. Tozer
    http://www3.calvarychapel.com/library/Tozer-AW/PursuitOfGod/0.htm

  12. AAA,

    I’ve thinking more about you saying I had coincidences. When I “gave” my car to God in prayer it was stolen an hour later. How is that a coincedence? It is amazing how many coincedences Christians have following prayer.

  13. AAA,

    I’ve thinking more about you saying I had coincidences. When I “gave” my car to God in prayer it was stolen an hour later. How is that a coincedence? It is amazing how many coincedences Christians have following prayer.

  14. A3 raises a good question that I’m not certain that I could respond to and do justice to what I’m describing.

    Here’s my .02

    1. Basically, I think the phrase “relationship with God” is kind of a password among evangelicals so that they can identify themselves to each other. In the church I came up in, “personal relationship with God” was typically used to distinguish us from liturgical Christans and most definately is used to flag ourselves as God’s people.

    2. Among evangelicals and fundamentalists, the phrase appears to be tied to the conversion event or “making a decision”. In my experience, that event requires a person to meet two criteria. The first is to have some sort of divine encounter. Generally, this has been described variously as “being convicted”, “being chosen or called”, “being led by the Holy Spirit” or “Jesus knocking on the door of my heart”. Basically, people are referring to some encounter that motivates them towards God. Generally regarded as something external to the person, even though the experience is deeply personal and thus, highly subjective. The second aspect of the conversion event, as I have observed, is an act of the will on the part of the converting person. The phrasing to describe this is all over the map, but basically it involves a person deciding to “follow” or live in conformity with our understanding of Jesus.

    3. After the conversion event, evangelicals tend to be vague about a relationship with God means. Perhaps it could be as simple as “pray, read your bible and walk in the spirit”?

    Now to respond to what I think is a profoundly fair question. I think that relationship with God means the following:
    1. Some sort of conversion event, I basically subscribe to point 2 above. I would basically describe the mystical experience with God to be like this: God motivates me to bring my life into line with Him in the best way I can at that time. I believe the motivator to be a mystical and subjective encounter or awareness that Jesus is both alive, hard to resist and interested in how I live my life. Again, highly subjective, but difficult to describe beyond saying, I realize that I ought to be different than I am and God is required for me to enable that change.

    2. After that, I do not go for the coincidence theory. Not because I don’t believe they don’t happen, but I do believe that hardship produces faith. If there are divine coincidences, I believe they appear to work to our detriment.

    3. I do subscribe to the image of a journey with God. We do not ever stop the journey, short of death. This is no more or less complicated than an every day recognition that I am limited and I have more to learn. I do not believe this to be an exclusively Christian concept. However, the journey means that I am open to learning more and becoming better by attempting to emulate Jesus.

    4. The mystical aspect of this is kind of the awareness that I live with an omnipresent God who has created an entire world or nature, circumstances and people who constantly push me to modify my existing beliefs, prejudices and practices so that I might become more like Jesus. Sometimes, I am aware of God’s presence, often I am not. When I am aware of it, its usually like the feeling of being cared for, being watched, feeling like I ought to do something (generally specific), or being homesick (for lack of a better word). It is a feeling as strange as it is rare. I can count on one hand the number of times in my life I felt precisely that way. None of those events has been triggered by using a mantra or some other sort of mass hysteria that work me into it. I’ve not found a way to manufacture the feeling, but I would guess that other folks do manufacture a feeling and label it God.

    5. Much more common is the sensation of wondering whether it’s all just a fiction. It’s easy to believe that out of countless billions of stars, we are the cosmic equivalent of winning the lottery. It’s easy to believe that we were produced by some fluke-y convergence of billions of factors and we should just enjoy the ride while we have it. Something in my gut just makes that false. Even typing it feels like telling a lie. I think John of the Cross’ idea of a dark night of the soul is really important. I suspect that the relationship with God might be more akin to seeing how we live when it doesn’t seem like God sees, cares or exists.

    6. Basically, I believe that a relationship with God is one of dis-satisfaction. At the end of the day, I know the guy in the mirror can be of better quality than I am now. I read the bible in hopes that I see something new. I aspire to live as if I have forfeited my life to Jesus and I experience a richer life in being more like him (the idea of dying to myself to live like him). Prayer, fasting, giving, etc are all important parts of the process of change that I credit to God. The awful shame is that among evangelicals we are woefully under-equipped to practice being like Jesus. The clergy typically doesn’t have any light to shed on the subject since they are no better equipped than the rank and file. So we speak in cliche’ about a process of changing and sadly our parishioners don’t change much at all.

    7. I also think that disillusionment is a good thing. As I age, I find that I continue to be dis-satisfied with any religious expression that doesn’t move me towards something authentic and worthwhile. Frankly, I believe that the unwillingness to tolerate anything other than Jesus is the greatest gift God can offer, but that’s not so mystical.

    Whether you see him as the historic Jesus, the real Jesus, the resurrected Jesus or the literary Jesus, there is something different, compelling and unavoidable about him. My fascination with Jesus is probably the biggest single aspect of what I would describe as a relationship with God.

    A3–I’m not sure this is what you’re looking for, but it’s my riff on the topic.
    Kevin–sorry so long.

  15. One Little Man,

    No problem. Abraham was called a friend of God. I would like to think that I am too.

  16. OLM,

    Thank you so much for taking time to share and for the candor and honesty of your testimony. That is rare indeed and I greatly appreciate it.

    You read my question about “personal relationship” correctly! It also sounds like it was an important question to you at some point, and maybe it still is.

    I think pass-phrases are ok but when speaking to “outsiders”, Christians ought to use them with more care. In general, the Christian experience isn’t a “personal relationship” in the same sense that the phrase usually implies – at least no one that I’ve ever had contact with has given me any reason to believe that it is. And when someone clarifies that upfront, I am much more inclined to consider their actual experience rather than being put off by a claim that at face value, appears misleading. I’m guessing other “outsiders” react similarly.

    OLM, to answer your last question, that is exactly what I was looking for. In fact, it matches very closely my own experience when I was a believer.

    On your 2nd point #2 – I found your comment very insightful and I’ve often thought the same thing: if this life is only an infinitesimal moment of an eternal life, then our wealth, health, and comfort don’t matter a bit. The only thing that would matter is spiritual growth and saving other souls. Everything else is ephemeral – and even a distraction.

    On point #5 – I don’t think there is a Christian alive who doesn’t consider that other world views might indeed be true and the Christian world view a fantasy. The difference I think is that too many Christians won’t admit it to “outsiders”, and others won’t even admit it to insiders or to themselves. I think genuine faith is not afraid to put itself to the test; it doesn’t need the shield of authoritarianism to protect its fragile innards. Your candor in this regard leads me to believe that you arrive at faith through reflection and an open mind, rather than through retreat and fear. Am I far from the mark?

  17. AAA,

    Let me say that yours is a very fresh and welcome dialogue.

    I’m of the opinion that many of the descriptions of a personal relationship fail to satisfy b/c we really have no way to express them well. There is no other personal relationship we have to compare it to. Every other relationship involves the same senses available to the “unbeliever”. If I say, “I talked to my wife today” everyone has a comparable experience in their own life so they know exactly what I’m talking about–either in person (seeing and hearing) or over the phone, etc. (hearing only). Either means, most everyone has a similar experience of “talking” to someone that they can relate to.

    Not so with God. In 99.8% (that’s a bona fide, scientifically accurate #, btw ;-) , of the cases our relationship with God does not involve the senses in the same way that it does with another human being. It should be expected, given that He is a spiritual being that rarely appears in a bodily form or rarely speaks with an audible voice. This relationship with God is unlike any other a believer has–often that makes understanding it and expressing it difficult. It also inherently makes it difficult for someone else to accept our feeble descriptions b/c there is nothing in their experience to compare it to. Their spiritual senses have not been engaged for whatever reason, therefore they don’t “see” and “hear” or recognize God or His place in the life of the believer.

    We often say, some things have to be seen to believed. The flip side may also be true–Some things have to be believed to be seen–to quote Philip Yancey.

    My favorite scene in the movie “Signs” is the one that talks about 2 Kinds of People–see the clip for a refresher:

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=ej_dVh2hKbs

    I believe that is how the universe is supposed to work. There is enough evidence in the universe to believe God does not exist, and there is enough to believe that He does. We can look at the same thing and come to different conclusions. The possibility exists that there is no God and I’m just spinning my wheels believing. But the flip side is also possible, that there is a God and I’m not wasting my time.

    I can list off numerous events in my life, like others have, where God has led, God has spoken, God has intervened. You could probably find an alternative interpretation of all of them, even when hearing an actual voice (strangely the loudest and clearest voice was a demonic one), but you won’t be able to convince me that my experience is not real. They’re just not yours and perhaps beyond what you can relate to.

    You mentioned a reciprocal nature of relationship–I have received that, along with times of great distance. I pray God will reveal Himself to you and that your senses of Him will be awakened. I don’t know when that will happen, but I believe it will.

    Pursuing Answers to Questions of Faith & Life,

    Kelly

  18. Kelly, I am not afraid to admit there were times when I wondered if Jesus is real. I had to try Him to see if He was.

    Because I did put Him to the test with sincerity, that question however has been answered in such a personal and complete way.

    Yes.

  19. A3

    I’m not sure how I would answer your final question. I do think that matters of faith require a great deal of thought. I also think that authoritarianism (at least in the sense of “because the preacher says so”) is a dead end.

    Mystical experience, while impossible to quantify and typically makes me skeptical of others, is tremendously persuasive to me. At the same time, I don’t think mystical experience crops up every day, so I do think faith requires a great deal of reflection.

    I’d also like to point to the faith of other folks that I read about today, even though it may well be straying from the point. http://www.philly.com/inquirer/front_page/20070913_Amish_stoically_endure_scars_of_massacre.html
    Their authenticity is one of those acts on the part of a faith community that is a road sign for me. I am moved by it and aspire to it. I don’t imagine that they would use the “personal relationship” language, but they are so vibrantly like Christ that I must take notice (please note that I am not declaring the Amish to be the end-all and be-all of the Christian faith, immune from human frailty).

    Kelly, thanks for the link to Signs. It seems really on point. That film generated a lot of good thinking in me.

  20. OLM,


    I’m not sure how I would answer your final question

    I think you may have answered it. I was just saying that there seems to be 2 camps of believers: first, those who arrive at faith by honestly considering conflicting world views and deciding that faith makes sense, and second, those who cling stubbornly to faith by refusal to consider conflicting world views for fear that they might discover that their faith is unfounded. Of course few people are at either extreme but I think people tend toward one camp or the other.

    Based on your posts, I see you as closer to the first camp (those who openly consider conflicting world views to arrive at faith) and I was just wondering if you notice the distinction among believers and if you saw yourself that light.

    Kelly,


    Let me say that yours is a very fresh and welcome dialogue.

    Thanks, Kelly! I’m enjoying it too. Thanks again, Kevin, for starting this thread on my behalf!

    Kelly, I think your description of “the experience” is much more realistic then the usual description of the “personal relationship with God”. Its unfortunate that all too often, Christians undermine this honest witness by implying that their personal relationship is a face-to-face relationship with God – they talk to God, and God talks to them – and they leave it at that. It’s a bit disingenuine to imply (even by omission) that God is real to them in the same way that my wife is real to me.


    We often say, some things have to be seen to believed. The flip side may also be true–Some things have to be believed to be seen–to quote Philip Yancey.

    So true!

    And to take it a step farther, once we allow ourselves to believe long enough to “see it”, then we are in a good position to step back a bit and ask: was it out there all along, and all I had to do was to suspend disbelief long enough to discover it.? Or does it exists only in my mind because I believe it? In other words, my experience was real but was my interpretation of it the right interpretation? (just a rhetorical question here – but one we should ask ourselves)

    Thanks for your kind prayers.

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