I’m in Atlanta for the Catalyst Conference so I called my new friend Ask an Atheist.org to see if we could meet for lunch. So my associate Mike and I met A3 at Bahama Breeze. The weather in Northwest Atlanta is beautiful today so we sat outside and ate. Yes, Mike and I prayed to God to bless our food. 
Let me say that A3 is an extremely nice man. He is married and works in the IT field. He has an interesting background. He was born in the Jewish faith and questioned his existence as a teenager. He has explored many faiths including Christianity, Buddhism and Taoism.
Let me say up front that the purpose of our meeting was not to “convert” the atheist. I make no bones about the fact that I pray for A3, Geekwad, Francoise and others on a daily basis. My purpose in life is to share Jesus with people. Mike and I both shared our faith today and A3 did not pray to follow God as far as I know. I wanted to meet him just to hear why he is an atheist. Our time together was very respectful and friendly. I consider him a friend and hope to continue our talks in the future. I would consider A3 a “seeker” although he may disagree with me.
I am grateful to God for allowing me to meet so many people through this blog. I’m amazed that I can be so outspoken about my faith in Jesus and yet atheists and other faiths feel welcome. I hope that continues.
The picture above was taken on I-85 South and the “How’s my driving?” sticker’s phone number had duct tape over it!
Mr. Dot Org has the patience of a saint. I’m always impressed by the calm and respectful way he responds to things that would trip my circuit breaker and send me into a frothing fit. But then, that’s why I come here.
Great stuff, Kevin.
Great stuff.
Rumor is KB, that a certain someone passed you on I-85 today…
Have a great conference. I’ve got a conference I’m going to at the end of the month in the Bahama’s…and I’ll be swimming with the sharks!
Kevin,
I’ll be in Atlanta from Thursday evening until Saturday evening…
Would still like to meet you.
Way to go, Kevin! That’s exactly what Paul did at Mars Hill, what Jesus did at the well in Samaria, and what I would have done as well.
Now is the followup and prayer. You can do it, man!
Thanks, Geekwad
It’s a “gift”
Kevin,
Thanks for all those kind words! It was nice to see what you look like without that hockey stick
For the record, Kevin and Mike are good guys too – guys you’d like to hang with. And I’m not just saying that because they sprang for lunch – without even making me pray for it !
Speaking of which – I posted a new article on my site a few days ago about prayer for food. Just so you know, I did NOT post it because of our lunch today. It is just a coincidence that you (Kevin) actually prayed the words that I quoted in my article.
Very cool, guys.
AAA, you look nothing like the picture I had in my head. Funny how we form mental pictures of people based on their comments!
texasinafrica, I filed down the horns before lunch
What I think is so neat about this blog is that people can get together and discuss theological issues in a thoughtful and thought-provoking manner without resorting to name-calling. I am firmly convinced that the type of relationship building that Kevin demonstrated today (and demonstrates in his daily Starbucks encounters) is the only way that we as Christians can make any headway in the lost world. People respect you a lot more when they know you actually give a flyin’ flip about what they think and believe.
I am, of course, committing Envy!
Only Six more sins and I will have all seven by nightfall.
Hey! I’m available for lunch tommorow. You name the food type and we’ll eat the best Atlanta has to offer.
Email: Home- wizkid76@bellsouth.net
Work- kurt@qualityingranite.com
I live and work 20 minutes from Northpoint.
Let me know.
Before I have a frothing fit with curiousity, Geekwad, who or what is Mr Dot Org?
It is great to put a picture to the words! Great post!
AAA, horns had nothing to do with it!
Francoise, Geekwad means my AskAnAtheist”.org” (Dot Org) moniker.
MIT, if you’re ever out this way (or I that way)… By the way, did you get my last email?
Thanks, A3, and Shalom!. My husband is also Jewish – they make the best husbands!
Kevin- while I appreciate your efforts, I don’t understand whyt you’d pray for me. If God has decided, at the very beginning of time, who were to be his “elect’, then obviously nothing is going to sway his mind or alter his opinion. The bible states that no man can come to know God unless God himself decides to muscle into someone’s life. Hence, it’s out of my control and yours.
I believe that it’s in Thesalonians that God sends people strong delusions, just to make sure that they remain “unsaved”. Crazy stuff, mate!
Francoise,
Jesus gives a story of a person who wanted bread at midnight, so he goes to a friends house to get it, when he gets there the man is asleep. At first his friend ignores him but because he is persistent he answers the door and gives him food…so Jesus makes this point “keep on asking and I will give you what you ask for.”
So prayer has the ability to be a very powerful spiritual tool.
That story is found in Luke 11, i quoted verse 9.
“And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will be given what you ask for. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened. For everyone who seeks, finds. And the door is opened to everyone who knocks.
by the way, whoever took that pic of you & AAA did a great job!!! I’m lookin for a photographer, can I get whoever did thats info?
Phil,
I’d love to get up with you but we will be in the conference until Friday afternoon, then we are headed home.
David,
That wasn’t my truck.
TIA,
Thanks for #300,000th hit.
Geekwad,
We will have to make a trip to the Great White North
Kurt,
I sent you an email. If you can meet great.
MIT,
I wish you could have been here.
Francoise,
I’m glad A3 could answer the question for you. Mike and I will be glad to fly to Australia next week.
Greg, Quinn, Rocky and Angie,
Thanks for the kind words.
M,
Francoise & M,
You’re each presenting a side of a contradiction in the Bible.
Side 1: God knows all from the beginning and doesn’t change his mind; He deludes people so that they will not believe. He choses us, not we Him. Prayer doesn’t sway Him.
Flip side: God answers all prayer:
Even more interesting to me than the contradictions themselves are the apologetics ( which I hope will follow
) for resolving them.
AAA, Apologetics? I don’t have them. But, how about God’s ways our higher than our own and He is God and I am not? All of the religious types, philosophers, and even some of the Jesus followers, have debated free will versus God’s sovereignty since the beginning…. demonstrating what appears to be inconsistency doesn’t seem all that convincing. Many things appear to be inconsistent in this world, including my own thoughts, but that doesn’t change Who God Is.
If anyone ever gets to Fayetteville, Arkansas, while we aren’t out of the country, I’m happy to entertain for lunch.
Bryan,
I see! That IS different from apologetics! (wink wink, nudge nudge)
Contradictions in the Bible cast doubt on claims that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.
If you believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, then presumably you have a reason for believing it. Presumably the content of the Bible itself is a reason. Based on its content, it seems to you that the Bible is the Word of God because, for one thing, it seems to be consistent as if it came from a single author: God. It seems to you that it is inerrant because there you can find nothing in it that seems wrong (inconsistent, immoral, etc.).
I’m demonstrating that parts of the Bible seem like they are not inerrant. The presence of contradictions supports the claim of errancy.
Just out of curiosity, what do you think “apologetics” means?
Then can we know that God is good? How can we judge? To illustrate, if God were to torture innocent babies to death, could we say that this is bad? Could we even say that God would never do that because God is good and torturing innocent babies is bad? Or instead, must we say that it must be ok to torture innocent babies to death because God did it and we simply don’t understand the reason that torturing innocent babies is actually good?
That seems inconsistent with the Christian concept of God. The Christian concept seems to affirm that God is indeed good; which implies that we humans, made in the image of God, are capable of understanding the ways of God enough to affirm that He is good.
If “God’s ways our higher than our own”, and we can’t know “Who God Is,” then can we know whether He contradicts Himself or not? Maybe He does and it’s ok that He does? It is the same problem as “can we know that God is good or bad?”
AAA,
Let me give my thoughts .
God answers our prayers provided the request is in accordance to his will and his ways.
I don’t understand Quantam Mechanics .Does that mean Quantam Machanics is wrong.Or that I can question it?
The same with God’s ways .
We(Christians) believe God reveals his ways to those who fear him.
Well Kevin
Why don’t you come to Chicago and have “Lunch with a Pentecostal”?
Sounds like a “lunch” series to me…
Kev,
If you haven’t already read it, check out the book “Jim and Casper Go to Church.” Your meeting was a page straight out of that book. Good stuff. Thanks for modeling what true love and dialogue should be.
martyraj,
If something is God’s will, does He make it happen even if nobody prays it?
Very good point! If we don’t understand something in general, whether it be quantum mechanics or whatever, we should question it. Maybe it is wrong after all. I agree that we shouldn’t automatically believe something unless there is a reason to do so. I encourage you to question quantum mechanics.
In the mean time, it seems that Francoise and M have indeed hit on a Bible contradiction. The Bible cannot be inerrant if it contains contradictions. I encourage you to question the inerrancy of the Bible as well.
Kevin,
That’s great that you are connecting w/ people! I’m jealous that you are @ Catalyst – I’m going to go one day…
By the way…is that Bahama Breeze by Northpoint? I think I ate there last time I went to NP!
AAA, I never said that I disagreed that there are parts of the bible that seem inconsistent. That was my point. They seem so. That doesn’t mean that they are so. Faith takes things that are unclear and believes in spite of the lack of clarity. If it is clear it doesn’t require faith.
You say:
Then can we know that God is good?
I say:
By faith, yes.
You say:
How can we judge?
I say:
We cannot. Without knowing as God knows, we have no basis for judgment.
You say: To illustrate, if God were to torture innocent babies to death, could we say that this is bad?
I say:
We could not. Of course, there are a lot of facts assumed in this question. We have to define torture and innocence. If we define torture as something evil then we could say that the one torturing innocent babies to death was not God. Of course, again, our ability to determine or define what is or isn’t good or evil is limited as compared to God’s ability to do the same.
You say:
Could we even say that God would never do that because God is good and torturing innocent babies is bad?
I say:
It would depend on definitions again and the one defining. I can guess, by implication, that you are defining torture and death as something bad and, if God is good, then I would conclude that God would never do that. His character is consistently Good, and therefore something that is truly bad could not be God.
Now, having said that, your or my definition of bad may not truly be Bad (or evil, Evil), and therefore I may, in my limited understanding, mistakenly assume something is Evil, when it is not. I also may mistakenly attribute something to God or a god when it is really coming from a different source.
You say:
Or instead, must we say that it must be ok to torture innocent babies to death because God did it and we simply don’t understand the reason that torturing innocent babies is actually good?
I say:
Without knowing as God knows I cannot judge what He does or replicate it.
If all what I’ve written is understandable, just like if all that you wrote is understandable, then we did fairly well. I don’t think we did, but, there you go… you start talking about things that are beyond our ken and, voila, you may get a lot of hot air.
Bryan,
Yes, I think we did well indeed!
By your responses, I think you understood correctly what I was getting at – and I think I understood your position as well.
I’m not sure you understand, in the same way I do, the ramifications of not being able to judge the Bible’s authority, yet depending its authority for your faith. Or perhaps we both understand it the same but we don’t agree on how important the problem of circular logic is.
Shalom, A3!! All very well put- only one thing I don’t comprehend: the reference to horns and filing them down. Could you explain this, please? Is it an American in-joke? An obscure reference to some equally obscure Biblical verse? A heavy metal band? I’m puzzled.
Francoise,
G’day, mate!
About the horns, it’s nothing nearly as exotic as you imagine. texasinafrica said near the top of this thread that “you look nothing like the picture I had in my head.” So I was joking that (s)he had pictured me as a demon with horns and that I had filed them down so they didn’t show in the photo.
I do think we understand one another, but I want to ensure that I was clear about faith. I don’t see it as circular to say that faith in something is faith in something that isn’t clear. If there is clarity, believing in it isn’t faith – it is certainty. So, when I say I have faith in Jesus, I understand that there are reasonable arguments against such a faith, which is also why you can make such arguments!
When I say I have faith that God makes sense even though sometimes from our perspective His word doesn’t, then I am putting my faith in something unclear and uncertain. But that’s okay, because it is a decision of faith.
I choose to place my faith in Jesus even though there are reasons to doubt. I don’t do so without reason; there are great reasons to believe. I believe He is the solution to the inconsistency and desperation in human hearts.
I know He is in mine.
A3,thanks for that- I was wondering if you were making a subtle reference to Woody Allen’s “Love and Death”.
M, if some inconsiderate loon came bashing at my door at midnight, I’d turn the hose onto him/her.
Awesome thing you’ve got going on here.. It’s inspiring!
Bryan,
I don’t either.
The circular logic I see is this: (A) faith in God because of (B) what the Bible says and the belief that the its message is divine. if B then A.
Despite reasons to believe that the Bible is not divine, you (B) believe it is indeed divine because of (A) your faith in God. If A, then B.
I understand, but I don’t have faith in God because of what the bible says, though. I have faith in God because of what He’s done. the bible is a written record of it and my faith in the divine inspiration of the bible came later. I began my faith journey completely apart from the Word of God. I simply believed there was a God who wanted to be my father and that He adopted me through the work of Jesus. Sure, is some of that told in the bible? Yes, but I had no concept of the bible at that point, not really. I just knew that I wanted to find love and know what God did for me when I believed. .
Bryan,
How did you know about the work of Jesus, or that God is like an adopting Father? From your family and friends? Where did they get those ideas?
So maybe this would be a better characterization:
Before you knew about the Bible, your faith did not rely on circular logic; it relied on the premise that family and friends were correct about God.
But when you did come to know about the Bible, you understood that it contained the concepts about Jesus and the Father you were taught as a child.
So as a child, you were taught concepts about God which originate from the Bible, and you believed what you were taught. You later learned that the Bible was the origin of those concepts about God. Since you believed the concepts, you also believed the Bible. Since you believe the Bible, you believe in the concepts and therefore believe in God.
Divine inspiration of scripture is not necessary for you to believe in God since you believed what the Bible said about God without understanding that the it was divinely inspired. Therefore, you feel free to examine the evidence that shows that the Bible by and large is a human work and not a divine work. If you should conclude that it is indeed largely a human work (as many Christian scholars have), your faith in God will remain unchanged.
Is that a fair characterization?
I think our discussion is on the right track in that we seem to both understand the problem with circular logic and are looking at how faith in God does not necessarily require circular logic.
And, it wasn’t just what family and friends told me, which is why I did not see what I was hearing as coming back to the Word of God even though I knew that they, of course, relied in part on their understanding of the bible, but I didn’t think it hurt my testimony to ignore that… You see, if there is a God, AAA, then, of course, He is fully capable of speaking to me as well as anyone. And, He is not limited to some words on a page. He is not even limited to some beautiful sunsets, rainbows or the like. If He is truly Infinite, then, by definition He is not limited at all in His ability to speak to His creation. Ahhh, the assumptions I am making… by…back to that word… faith.
Bryan,
Then perhaps he is simply unwilling to speak to all but a few?
Perhaps He is waiting for all to listen. Creation speaks for itself. And His voice continues on.
We can, by the way, rationalize and discuss all life long. People have been doing it for all of time. I think it simply shows that our reason has a limit. Faith does not. Faith in the Unlimited is freedom!
So is running naked through the forest – but I’m not waiting in line to do that either